Carver ZR/TriPath Amps

kana813 · « **Reply #100 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 08:42 am »

"Lord knows what quality cap." - If you took the cover to see the wind tunnel, couldn't you see the caps*?

"No reviewer has the equipment, experience and measurement expertise at my disposal, and I approach the unit as a piece of high end gear, not touring equipment. " - Since it's obvious you're just going to bring it over
to Mr.Curl's, and you don't know how to identify electronic parts*, why not let Mr.Curl give us a report?

blue · « **Reply #101 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 04:09 pm »

Kana813
I don't know what problem you have with Cheney and really don't care. Your trollish comments (the one above and in another similar thread in the VMPS forum) have no place here and have become annoying.

Out of your 8 posts to this site, 3 of them are trolls against Cheney (yes, it is a troll even if you put a smiley on it).

I come to these forums because I want to be here and enjoy them. If you can't hack setting aside the pathetic online game flame mentality, then please just go away.

kana813 · « **Reply #102 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 05:57 pm »

Blue= mahalo for taking the time to read my 8 posts.

Are my other 5 ok?

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #103 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 05:58 pm »

Without a schematic it's difficult to say what parts have a specific function, particularly since the board traces can't be seen from above. There appear to be two small electrolytic coupling caps near the input side of the main board. The input board contains no caps, just resistors and small IC's which are probably signal processing devices. There is a multilead flat cable from the input to the main board.

My first job in audio was in 1965 as a technician at the MacIntosh warranty station, and I repaired and tested dozens of pieces. From 1969 to 1972 I directed the Quality Control Electronics Laboratory for the European Exchange System and tested at least a hundred pieces of consumer audio gear, mostly amps, speakers and receivers. I have had my own company, VMPS Audio since 1977.

John Curl holds a physics degree from SF State, worked for Ampex in his youth, then Mark Levinson, Harman-Kardon, Monster Cable (Synergy) and has owned Vendetta Research since the early 1980's. His designs are considered seminal in the development of high end SS gear. He has developed unique test protocols, which is what I meant when I said I had more and better test equipment, experience and expertise at my disposal than any magazine or webzine reviewer, many of whom are simply flacks for the audio industry.

Mr. Curl and I have, between us, over 70 years as professionals in High End audio.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #104 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 06:02 pm »

If you look carefully into the wind tunnel on the ZR1600 you can see two very small, thin finned heatsinks about 1" high on either side of the tunnel.
They are not of the sort suitable for convection cooling.

RussKon · « **Reply #105 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 06:31 pm »

i am really pretty curious as to why carver decided to use fan cooling for this line of amps....

about a year before the ZR series was introduced, carver pro introduced their CV series of amps.... these amps also use the tripath technology.... they have 4 and 8 ohmn outputs as well as 70 volt outputs for installed sound use....

this entire line of amps are convection cooled.... no fans.....

so why go back to a fan for the newer ZR series???????

kana813 · « **Reply #106 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 06:37 pm »

Mr. Cheney- Mahalo for your reply.

I know Mr.Curl is an outstanding audio designer, that's why I suggested having him evaluate amp.

John Casler · « **Reply #107 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 08:15 pm »

Quote

Since it's obvious you're just going to bring it over
to Mr.Curl's, and you don't know how to identify electronic parts*, why not let Mr.Curl give us a report?

Quote

I know Mr.Curl is an outstanding audio designer, that's why I suggested having him evaluate amp.

Accuse me of being an attack dog for Brian, (he can certainly defend himself) but I too find your "tone" and repetitive "concealed" innuendo rather out of place, and innacurate.

Although you of course, are welcome to your opinion, as well as attitude, you might find wider acceptance and a more enjoyable expereince here, if you choose your wording a bit better

I might add, that Brian not only has enormous experience as he has modestly stated, but has been involved with not only John Curl, but Jim Bongiorno. Two of the greatest amp and electronic designers in the business, so I can assure you, he can "identify electronic parts".

kana813 · « **Reply #108 on:** 6 Oct 2003, 05:45 am »

"Accuse me of being an attack dog for Brian," - John it's perfectly alright
to be an attach dog, just make sure you register with the AKC.

SWG255 · « **Reply #109 on:** 7 Oct 2003, 03:48 am »

Hi,

I've just spent the evening listening to my Carver Pro ZR 1600 which arrived from 8th Nerve today. I think it's going to be a winner for me, even unmodified. I found myself enjoying the music, and not paying particular attention to this or that aspect of the amplifier's sound. it has a differenttonal balance than my Threshold 4000. It's lighter. Even my wife, who has always just tolerated my Audiophile hobby asked me if the amp was brighter and more vivid than the old one. It is, but not in the pejorative sense meant by many reviewers.

After Brian's comments about his ZR 1600 sounding "gummy and bloated" when first hooked up and turned on, I wasn't prepared for the startling transient response exhibited by this amplifier. It's as though the drivers in my loudspeakers have lost almost all of their mass. It isn't so much that transients have sharp attack, which they do, but they STOP so darn fast! It's as if the amplifier is exerting control over the speakers like they've never had before, but not just in the bass, but throughout the entire spectrum. All of this and there's hardly any noticeable glare or tizziness, even at this early stage.

The fan is too loud, and I had no luck with the RCA to XLR adaptors I tried, the amp generated too much hum with them. i ended up using some Radio Shack RCA to 1/4" adaptors instead, and they are much quieter. i won't speak to their sonics, right now the sound of the amp is so different than what I had before that I'm not in a position to comment on the sound of the adaptors or cables in the system.

It's really going to be fun listening to this baby as it breaks in. I'll do a full review in a week or two after it's broken in and I've listened to more material on it. Again, I want to stress that it's already a very musical amplifier. I havn't heard anything for anywhere near its price that is as musical and has power enough for me.

Brad V · « **Reply #110 on:** 7 Oct 2003, 07:53 pm »

Hi,

I really like to see all these new inexpensive digital amps coming out. They are making higher end audio a lot more affordable to people who couldn't afford spending $2,000 and up for an amp. I have heard some very good Digital amp, with some being the Bel Canto & Tact. They all had a nice sound, however far from a highend SET, OTL and Class A SS, IMO. With the SET's, the images are more carved out in space and are much more intimate. The same goes for the OTL's, like the Atma-Sphere MA1's, David Berning, Tenor and Lamm Amps.

Kind of like how SACD gets you closer to Vinyl, however not quite there. According to a post recently, by someone who probably has the best Digital Setup and Vinyl Setup, said that his Vinyl setup, sounds 4 times better than his SACD. I found that hard to believe, until I recently learned how to get the most out of my Vinyl setup. I now believe it more than ever.

Have a great day,

Brad

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #111 on:** 7 Oct 2003, 08:36 pm »

Exactly four times better? Not three and a half, not five, but exactly four?

Sorry to poke fun, I just wonder where folks come up with these numbers!

Sorry if that came across as six-point-five times more obnoxious than normal!

Brad V · « **Reply #112 on:** 7 Oct 2003, 08:41 pm »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Exactly four times better? Not three and a half, not five, but exactly four? Sorry to poke fun, I just wonder where folks come up with these numbers!

Sorry if that came across as six-point-five times more obnoxious than normal!

Not a problem Rob. I think it's closer to 3.79249 times better. The one who said that is the venerable Mikel on AA. He has the Kharma Exquisites, Tenor Amps, Meitner DAC and Rockport TT.

Have a great day,

Brad

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #113 on:** 7 Oct 2003, 09:57 pm »

I think a lot of the problem with the digital gear is that it is made by digital engineers or is not tweaked very much. It seems that the real tweakheads are into vinyl and analog. So, then how can a stock Bel-canto, Tact, Carver, Sony etc. compete with $20,000 OTLs designed by people who listen to every part (like Tenors). Same with the digital source. Does anyone think that a Meitner DAC is at the same level as a super tubed phono stage (add your favorite $10,000 phono stage here). My sense is that Meitner uses op amps and ordinary parts in his $10,000 processor. Same with the Meitner modded Philips SACD 1000. All Meitner does is add his output board that converts CD to SACD and sends all the SACD info into the DAC. Does he actually do any tweaking to the transport (soft recovery diodes, Superclocks, damping, etc.), NO! How bout the digital cables. Does he use Iogel on them? NO. Iogel makes a big sonic improvement on glass cables.....it goes on and on.

We have not heard what a digital source can do, nor have we heard what a purely done digital amp can do. A couple more years....then we will have in idea. My friend Kyle at Reference Audio Mods has done a $5000 mod to the Marantz SA-! and compared directly to the latest Meitner transport/DAC. The Marantz was way better (so he says). We are just beginning the digital revolution. I personally cannot wait to get the new Sony AVD-S500ES and tweak the heck out of it. I bet it will sound great.....and not just for the money.....I mean really great!

The best is yet to come.

OBF · « **Reply #114 on:** 7 Oct 2003, 11:14 pm »

Quote from: Ric Schultz

I think a lot of the problem with the digital gear is that it is made by digital engineers or is not tweaked very much.

I don't know much about the relative strengths/weaknesses of the Icepower chips he's using, but Peter sounds like more of a tweaker than a digital engineer. Out of curiosity, do you think the eAR amps could be improved by tweaking, or do you think the newer chips/modules will supercede it, and tweaking them will be the place to begin? As good as they sound now, I can't imagine spending $5k-$10k on an analog amplifier.

On the other hand, I really like the idea of doing away with a preamp and interconnects like the S500ES. Do those things have any sort of a line stage at all?

_scotty_ · « **Reply #115 on:** 7 Oct 2003, 11:46 pm »

Quote from: OBF

I don't know much about the relative strengths/weaknesses of the Icepower chips he's using, but Peter sounds like more of a tweaker than a digital engineer. Out of curiosity, do you think the eAR amps could be improved by tweaking, or do you think the newer chips/modules will supercede it, and tweaking them will be the place to begin? As good as they sound now, I can't imagine spending $5k-$10k on an analog amplifier.

Hi OBF. the eAR ONE AND eAR TWO have long power supply wiring from
the main storage caps to the board. The power supply caps are not super low impedence at RF frequencies either. Peter has incorporated high speed bypass caps on the main supply caps in his latest top of the line amps. If these caps could be retro-fited to the older designs they would sound even better in the highs.

I would be interested to hear in what way you have tweaked your ICE power modules RIC

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #116 on:** 8 Oct 2003, 12:32 am »

Don't think Peter is really that much of a tweaker....not from the looks of how my Ear amp II MKII is made (by the way, it is for sale, never used or listened to, make offer!). Fairly ordinary parts and long signal path including use of original plug in connectors on Icepower boards. I don't see any mods to the original board. What Peter seems to be into is lots of filtering. He has an extra filter on the input, and anther coil and cap on the output as well as lots of AC filtering. This seems to be what he thinks makes the amp tick. But other than that....well....looks rather ordinary.

My own Icepower modules are modified and the power supplies are much more tweak than Peters, but I don't have as much filtering....just playing around....do sound very good. We shall see if they ever get to product. With the Sony doing everything in one box and no conversion to analog it would seem to me the way to go.....again, we shall see.

Of course, you could tweak Peters amp forever as any product....It all comes down to time, money and value......Does it make sense? Peter told me that I lost the warrantee on my amp just because I took the cover off!!!!! He is not known for his kindness and openess. However, I will honor the original warrantee because I have extra Icepower boards and the rest is easy to fix.

Trouble with the icepower modules is that they have built in opamps on the input (that you could substitute other ones for) but are really necessary for its operation.....does not seem to me to be the most pure way to do the input stage.

As I said, this is just the beginning.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #117 on:** 8 Oct 2003, 01:42 am »

BTW, just kiddin' you BradV.

I realized you were merely quoting.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #118 on:** 8 Oct 2003, 01:45 am »

BelCanto does the same thing. They add an op-amp ahead of the Tripath
driver module. This allows a pseudo-balanced input. Apparently they believe this is necessary to satisfy their perceived market. The problem
with an op-amp in the chain is that the performance ceiling is the op amp
and not the digital amplifier. Too many engineers do not see an op amp as a device with limitations and problems but rather as a solution to a problem that would otherwise require discrete circuit design to solve. Sometimes an opamp is a necessary evil but it shouldn't be a knee-jerk solution to every problem that comes up.

EMC · « **Reply #119 on:** 10 Oct 2003, 06:19 pm »

Is the consensus here that it's a mistake to use these amps with a digital processor like the Lexicon MC-12/8? Has anyone here done it? I know this is a 2-channel crowd but I'm considering these amps for my 626R/LRC front speaks. Thanks.