Carver ZR/TriPath Amps

kent · « **Reply #20 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 03:15 am »

[quote="DmasonThe ZR500 was my first purchase, and....WOW....I had no idea it would sound THAT good, about a year ago it was. BUt then you are into Neutrik adaptors, or reworked cabling, both for input (XLR) and Out, (Neutrik Speakon.) ...[/quote]

Oh yeah, it's the two higher-model ZR amps that have normal speaker terminals.

kent · « **Reply #21 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 03:40 am »

Quote from: kent

The ZR500 was my first purchase, and....WOW....I had no idea it would sound THAT good, about a year ago it was ...

You know, D., especially for the tube lovers reading this thread I suspect it's a bit of a stretch to believe any digital amp could meet their needs. It might help to hear a bit of your back story: all of the outstanding amps you've known and loved in your system, with which outstanding speakers and associated electronics... Basically, since everybody's got a personal "reference point" amp in mind, and since you've been searching for audio nirvana for a while, it just occured to me you've probably personally lived with a number of our preferred providers (valved and solid state).

Or, if you've covered this fully elsewhere, how about giving people the link?

I bet this will be interesting, so if you don't mind I'll just pull up a chair and set for a spell...

Cheers,

Kent

Dmason · « **Reply #22 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 03:52 am »

Again, the qualifier applies: "to these ears"

Here are the tube amps I have owned: AES Cary SuperAmp, Art Audio Jota, Cary 300B, old 1972 Harman Kardon EL34 receiver, Dynaco 70

SS: Bryston 4BST, Pass Aleph 30, Crown X something, pro audio which sounded good.

These were all great amps. With the SS, I used Class A tube pre to get the flow. With the Carver, I use a DaCT for unimpeded flow. I dont have to mess tubes anymore, and the sound is "close enough," "to these ears."

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #23 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 09:56 pm »

So I take it the ZR's guts are very similar to those of the Bel Canto amps? If so, that's even more remarkable.

I got a good price quote from 8th Nerve, I probably will give the Carver ZRs a shot.

Thump553 · « **Reply #24 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 06:20 pm »

Does anyone have any reccommendations for a remote control preamp, preferably passive, that is reasonably priced that would mate with this? I looked at the Creek OBH-12, but that does not have balanced inputs. All I need really is a remote volume control. It would be nice, but not totally essential, to have access to more than one source for my planned use.

It is my understanding that balanced inputs are neccessary-is this true?

This is a very intriguing piece of equipment.

Dmason · « **Reply #25 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 06:39 pm »

If you go the Carver ZR route, make the right move and get rid of your active pre amp, I cannot suggest that more strongly. They only get in the way. The Creek is a nice quick fix, however, to an extent is only a bandage, and will impede what these black beasts are going to do for your MUSIC.

Here is what I did: DaCT C2 resistor attenuator. OR Goldpoint ditto. www.goldpt.com These are fantastic products and very much components in their own right. This way the volume will never be the new weak link. If you want remote www.bentaudio.com These Crazy Canucks are on the bleeding edge of the high end, and have introduced a remote control retro fit for the DaCT attenuator, both run less than for a mid fi pre amp, plus, I just saved on one pair of interconnects, didn't I?.

I decided to go for the derby when I got this going, and have both hardwired INTO my Carver ZR, mounted to the frontplane, topped off with a nice phat gold knob. It looks cool, and I can go to bed knowing that I did my best to get it right. Sound? This is one dangerous rig folks, with high resolution, and the imaging and detail is downright psychedelic!! People's jaws drop when they are over listening at my house. My stereo sounds grander than you can possibly imagine with this set up. So, learn from my exhaustive research: Digital amplification combined with passive volume control, is The New Paradigm, from now on. And as always, post your findings.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #26 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 02:09 am »

Dmason, have you heard the Spectron Musician II or any of the ICE Power amps? I'm curious how TriPath amps, especially the Carver, compare with some of the other high end non-Tripath Class D amps.

Thanks.

Hantra · « **Reply #27 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 02:30 am »

D:

Do you find your system MORE, or LESS emotional than with tubes?

Dmason · « **Reply #28 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 03:16 am »

I think there is a similar sonic signature in the digital amps. I have heard the ICE eAR, and though it sounds great, too sterile for me. I seem to prefer the new Sony AVD, by comparison. I think the rising distortion levels per Frequency with the Tripath series accounts for the tube like aspect of the sound. THese do NOT sound like either SS or tubes, and as I said, they shouldnt. The Carver ZR is very emotional to me, because of the increased dynamics and bass rendering and control paint a much larger picture, both in broad and fine brush strokes. When I picked my jaw up off the floor.....Is it MORE emotional? I couldnt say. I will say that I am tube biased, pardon the pun, but the ZR reminds me alot of my $6000 Art Audio Jota with ten times the juice at one tenth the cost, and NO tubes. Any questions there?

THere has been some concern about measured distortion levels in these amps. this is crazy... First, it has been demonstrated that the human ear cannot hear anything under about seven percent, and further, it is even order distortion, and high amounts of it at that, that give tubes their emotive qualities. So, the ZR does rosin on the individual bows of the Juilliard Quartet, and also allows you to hear the EL34s crunch in Hendrix' strat. It just hands it all back to me. Harmonically complex instruments sound as they should, and I have the advantage of knowing what real instruments sound like. Emerson's Hammond going off in Madison Square is as complex as the oboe of a Mozart concerto. (Tonight's examples,) The ZR tells it like it is. It is a sonic chameleon. When used with outstanding and efficient speakers such as the ones I have, it excels. I like the ZR exactly because I like tubes, but now, with slam and Gold Balls. And you know what, --I paid about the same as what it would cost to completely retube my former 300B. As I have stated several times, after a long and illustrious line of outstanding components over the course of twenty five years of fiddling around, since being bitten by the bug in high school, the ZR is the best amp I have ever heard, by a LONG SHOT, regardless of implementation. Read the reviews on AA of those with pointier ears than I. I cannot make a stronger case. I promise those of you sitting on the fence, you will not only not be disappointed in either the zR or the SOny we are discussing elsewhere, you will be transformed. It has been a transformative experience for all us pointy eared converts....and remember, it is all about The Music!

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #29 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 03:41 am »

Thanks, Dmason. I'll confess, I want to believe!

I'm just trolling for as much feedback as I can before I make the move. At the price, you may think it's a no brainer, but it will be three times as expensive for me as for you since I'm a "Prophet of Mulitichannel." I may start with one amp, but if it's as good as you say, I'll have to next buy one for the center channel and then one more for the surrounds. In my current state of financial embarrassment, that's going to be my mad money for awhile!

At any rate, since committing to that first one will start me down the road of no return, I just want to get all the info I can.

A last question: all the ZR amps are bridgeable to mono, correct? And do you know anything about the other Carver Pro digital amp line? I read that they have another series that also use Tripath chips. Some SS amps reputedly don't sound as good bridged: I wonder is the ZR's do?

_scotty_ · « **Reply #30 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 03:47 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Dmason, have you heard the Spectron Musician II or any of the ICE Power amps? I'm curious how TriPath amps, especially the Carver, compare with some of the other high end non-Tripath Class D amps.

Thanks.

One of the problems facing a designer building a digital amplifier is to recognise that what he is actually constructing is a very high powered
RF amplifier.This demands a power supply that has very low impedence
at RF frequencies. In the case of the Tripath amp the upper limit is 1.5Mhz, in the case of the XICON Digital Solution 2Mhz. Needless to say
most designers either miss mark by a large margin or are prevented
from realizing it in the production piece because of costs associated with
such a supply.There is currently only one manufacturer that Iam aware of.making large value,high voltage caps with sufficiently low impedence at 1Mhz to be used successfully in a digital amps power supply and that is Jensen in Denmark.In the case of my Tripath based DIY the math says that
as much as 100amps maybe being switched at 1MHZ. The power supply
wiring has to kept short and local decoulping caps have to be used
to offset inductance in the wiring and suppress ringing. This is a round about way of saying that we are not hearing what digital amplifiers can
really do in most cases because of design compromises in the power supply.In the case of the Carver amp Jensens won't fit into the case
and BlackGates cannot be used everywhere they should be either.
It is a tribute to how well the design can do with one hand tied behind its back judging from the satisfaction expressed in Dmason's posts

Jay S · « **Reply #31 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 03:50 am »

Dmason,

It seems like what the Carver needs is a very transparent preamp. It doesn't seem that it necessarily must be a passive, but just more transparent than the tube pre that you tried.

Also, would you mind checking the back of your amp... is it multi-volt, e.g. can operate in 220v, or is it limited to 110?

Finally, what were the other components when you heard the eAR ICE amp? I don't find mine to be unemotional, though I do have a tube preamp. I am also now using a TubeDac in my system.

Dmason · « **Reply #32 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:03 am »

I tried two ZR1000, and I believe they are at their trans warp greatest run in bridged mono, because the amp runs now in antiphase. See the StereoTimes review of the Bel Canto eVo to know more. I discussed this at some length a long time ago with the anointed Dr Kalman Rubinson, who runs his eVos in mono bi amp mode and the former legendary tube o phile is not going, nor looking back. For me, I found it to be overkill, plus others around here thought I was losing it abit and maybe should think about setting up in the garage, ....so I backed off and now the amp is the nucleus of home life for another...As for multi channel, you might strongly think about one of the shiny new Sony receivers, I cannot believe I am advocating Sony receivers, but times they are a changin' --they sound great.

As for the Holy Grail of multichannel, yeah, I would sport for three ZR500 which would be only three rack spaces high, not too spendy, and be absolutely deadly. A career wrecking experience for sure. I applaud your most impressive initiative. If anyone comes out with the Tripath mono blocks, you could really hit it, with active dBX crossover and EQ, and bolt the little limpets onto the backplane of your speakers. An ideal situation....But I digress.

Dmason · « **Reply #33 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:14 am »

A friend of mine sent a ZR 500 to Stan Warren to have a look. The schematics were hard to get ahold of, and he was asked as I recall, to sign off on an NCND agreement. I noticed your Stan W eval chip amp. I bet that thing sings. He is more like re.designer than mere modification, too modest, that description. My personal wish would be to have Stan re do the ZR to see exactly what these things are really capable of, like you say, what we have here is a monster amp, whoser designers had at least one hand ties behind their backs, and still won.

At any rate, just like myself and others, Stan's impression of these amps is that they are outstanding. Please email me to tell me more about your DIY Stan W amp...

I do not recall what other components were used with the eAR amp I auditioned at our Audiophool Club, just that I liked it alot, but liked mine more, and had the chance to A-B it against the PS Audio HCA 2. Still preferred it.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #34 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:26 am »

Thanks, Dmason. Sorry to keep peppering you with questions, but you seem to be about the only one around here with much hands on experience w/several digital amps.

My thinking is along the lines of 3 ZR-1000s, or maybe 2 x 1000s and a ZR-500 bridged to mono to run the center.

The Sony is probably a nice peice, and 5 digital amps in one box is very attractive price wise. But that said the Sony's don't do much for me, and I certainly don't think they'd be much for MC music. I was looking at the rear of the units @ Crutchfield (hey, I just look at the pictures!

) and all the units except the top lack a MC input. So those of us w/universal players would be S.O.L.

I am curious about some of the other amps, but if the ZR is basically in the same league for a fraction of the money, why make life harder for myself?

Dmason · « **Reply #35 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 12:48 pm »

Hint: Knowing what good amps the ZRs are, I hear the really fresh ones come from a farm in Texas. The farmers name is Keven Hardin of Hardin Sound and Light. His contact info is on AA under the ZR dealers thread. Tell him you have a prescription. He'll know...

kent · « **Reply #36 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 09:36 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

decided to go for the derby when I got this going, and have both hardwired INTO my Carver ZR, mounted to the frontplane, topped off with a nice phat gold knob. It looks cool, and I can go to bed knowing that I did my best to get it right. ...

pictures please!

cyounkman · « **Reply #37 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 02:52 pm »

OK... I hate to get further into the woods here, but...

A friend of mine and I have been considering building and tricking out (black gates, etc) the venerable AKSA 55w that is so well known on this site, if not elsewhere. We figure the end cost will be similar to the smallest Carver. Any thoughts? I guess it would be too good to be true if anyone had actually heard both or even compared in the same system; but I can hope...

Another thought... My reading of the ZR500 manual indicates that there are level controls, ie volume knobs, for each channel. Is this true of yours, DMason? If so, why the drilling and DACT and such? Does the ZR1000 not have the volume knobs?

While you're at it, can you humour me and hook up the de capos to your ZR1000? I guess I'm willing to get into the xlr/neutrik thicket... what's the WCS? re-terminate the cables? I already have a balanced source (well, kind of...)

Dmason · « **Reply #38 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 03:20 pm »

You guys are killing me. "I hope the retailers know who is doing technical sales for them."

When I come a callin' -A labor of love, happy to help out The Music.

Only the little ZR 500 has Neutrik speakon only, for speaker outs. the other two also have 1/4" jacks. You can remove the Neutriks if you wish, but they are a solid, SOA fitting, and in fact the legal standard everywhere else in the world, for this type of application.

The knobs on the front are not really volume knobs, but clip limiters, throttle regulators. Remember these are designed for pro audio use. Hard to see in the picture, but go back, and you'll see a little tiny black hole. Push a pen into this and the limiters and all that associated circuitry is defeated, taken outta the picture, which does important things for the sound. Now, you need either your pre amp or a passive device. The exceptional Luminous Audio Axiom, "$125, is all the passive pre amp any hair-splitting audiophool will ever need for a single source, or the DaCT in my case, www.dact.com which needs to be fitted, or Goldpoint, www.goldpt.com or the impressive NHT PVC, which is balanced I/O. www.nhtpro.com. None of these are terribly expensive, and I guarantee that any one of them when used with the above will be with you for a long, long time.

ribit · « **Reply #39 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 03:27 pm »

I plugged my Sony 9000 ES directly into my ZR 1600 using a Rane Balance Buddy which converts RCA to a balanced connection. The dials did indeed act as a volume control.

Randall