Carver ZR/TriPath Amps

BeeBop · « **Reply #80 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 03:00 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

The AVD series are 80 and 100 wpc /8. The digital amps have alot of headroom, along the lines of tubes somehow, and if you have speakers over about 87db, it is plenty. both amp topologies sound Wonderful...

My ACI Sapphires are 86db and can be hard to push. How do you think the AVD series would handle them?

JCC · « **Reply #81 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 03:25 pm »

The CD format operated at 44.1 KHZ with a 16 bit word, which showed grain especially on the early releases. Even with that format, the newer releases with good equipment showed remarkable improvement. The SACD format operates with a 1 bit format at 2,822,400 (64 times faster than a standard CD). Voila the grain is gone with good recordings, and it is equal or better than analog recordings

With the Tripath Spread-spectrum switching amplifier, the swithching spead is 600 to 700 KHZ. The competing digital Class D format switches at 100 to 200 KHZ. All transistors are in fact switching devices, even in analog designs.

Anyway, the Tripath approach equals the best class A designs, with greatly improved efficiency (80% to 90%). When you listen, the clarity will astound you, and the grain is gone - Even on many of your older CD's.

RussKon · « **Reply #82 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 07:31 pm »

JCC,

thanks for the reprint of your review from last year....

a couple of quick questions

1. how efficient are your speakers? i am not familiar with the speaker that you use

2. how is the noise floor on your amp?

i have just ordered a ZR1000 and can hardly wait to get in installed

thanks again!!!

Zero · « **Reply #83 on:** 29 Sep 2003, 03:11 am »

JCC,

I noticed you used a passive pre with analog out's. How did you connect that to the 500 ?

Sa-dono · « **Reply #84 on:** 29 Sep 2003, 05:40 am »

Anyone know what the frequency response is on the various Carver models, and if any third party measurements have been done? Thanks in advance for any information!

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #85 on:** 29 Sep 2003, 04:26 pm »

FWIW, for those that only peruse the "2 Channel" forum, Brian "The Ear" Cheney of VMPS fame is currently reviewing the ZR 1600.

Follow the thread here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4977

kent · « **Reply #86 on:** 29 Sep 2003, 11:17 pm »

Quote from: BeeBop

Quote from: Dmason
The AVD series are 80 and 100 wpc /8. The digital amps have alot of headroom, along the lines of tubes somehow, and if you have speakers over about 87db, it is plenty. both amp topologies sound Wonderful...

My ACI Sapphires are 86db and can be hard to push. How do you think the AVD series would handle them?

Hard to say. Maybe not powerful enough. Depends how loud you like to listen, in what kinda room. Consider that I am able to comfortably play the '70 at its maximum possible volume ("45" increments, I believe) on quietly recorded CDs (example: Springsteen's Ghost of Tom Joad) in a moderately live 14X18 room w/ 8ft ceiling and 89/90 db sensitivity monitors, paired with high-powered subs below 100 hz. I have no sense the amp is straining at the max volume, and I don't need to max it out, but I don't think I'd want to lose 3 or 4 db of sensitivity in this set up. About 20 percent of my favorite recordings require a full 35 out of the available 45 volume increments to fully bloom. YMMV!

You might consider the Carver Pros w/ a passive pre...

BTW, love the Sapphires.

kent · « **Reply #87 on:** 29 Sep 2003, 11:41 pm »

Quote from: TheeeChosenOne

FWIW, for those that only peruse the "2 Channel" forum, Brian "The Ear" Cheney of VMPS fame is currently reviewing the ZR 1600.

Follow the thread here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4977

Thanks, Theee. There is also an interesting thread on the Carver Pro amps in the VMPS circle, in particular a report that Stan Warren recommended the ZR's. (I didn't know that! Sorry if it's old news to everybody else!).

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4577

blue · « **Reply #88 on:** 30 Sep 2003, 04:34 am »

I just wanted to say thanks to those who have been posting the links for the similar threads both here and on other boards.

It has been very helpful for continued reading on this.

Thanks again!

jqp · « **Reply #89 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 05:14 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

If by Thia you mean, "Thai," as in Norh, I would not hold my breath; I read they are having some real problems, and being very un-responsive, sorta like...ignoring their creditors. Besides, it is attempting to approximate the sound of digital amps. Get your money back, it is an omen, directing you to decide, based on this thread. The gods will it so.

...

Dmason - you should be careful how you speak. When you don't know what you are talking about and just repeat what your hear you are gossiping and can easily slander someone. mbarnes has NO creditors. It is the suppliers who owe him. As far as customers being creditors, no one is ever billed until product ships. So he has NO creditors. Also I wouldn't encourage others to make decisions based on omens. Superstition is not needed in this hobby.

kent · « **Reply #90 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 03:30 am »

Quote from: jqp

Dmason - you should be careful how you speak. When you don't know what you are talking about and just repeat what your hear you are gossiping and can easily slander someone. mbarnes has NO creditors. It is the suppliers who owe him. As far as customers being creditors, no one is ever billed until product ships. So he has NO creditors. Also I wouldn't encourage others to make decisions based on omens. Superstition is not needed in this hobby.

Ummm, I strongly agree that it's good to get the story right whenever feasible, but I think two big qualifications are in order here. First, it strikes me as sort of ironic to insist on precise characterizations and then raise the specter of slander where none appears to have occurred. My read of the quote is that dmason was careful to say he'd read X, not that he knew X to be true, and, taking caution one additional step, said that what he'd read was sort of like Y, not that it was Y. Slander is a legal term. Gossip and slander are not synonymous.

Second, gossip is not always a bad thing. Early warnings of possible problems frequently serve the common good, and since we do not all have infinite time and resources to check out everything we read, some of those warnings will prove to be false alarms. Subsequent corrective statements by other concerned parties can also serve the common good.

It seems to me there's a world of difference between writing "I know X has defaulted on his creditors", and saying "I've read that X may have done something sort of like defaulting on creditors". Just as there's a world of difference between saying "The new issue of The Nation is reporting that George Bush got double 300's on his SAT" and saying "I know for a fact that Dubya didn't break 600 on his SAT's."

Equating them can only have an unwanted chilling effect on (audio) discourse.

Sorry for the off topic post. I'm done; won't post again on this issue.

RussKon · « **Reply #91 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 02:17 pm »

back to the carver zr amps.....

i was intrigued by the optional input modules that are available for the zr1000 and zr1600....esp the ion media dsp tools module....

i contacted carver directly and was very pleased with the information that i received .... this module takes your analog input signal and converts into a digital signal.... at that point you have following following options per channel:

- 28 bands of paragraphic equalization - each fixed band has adjustable Q from one octave to 1/12 octave in seventeen steps

- 5 bands of full parametric equalization - adjustable center frequency, and adjustable Q from 1 octave to 1/12 octave in seventeen steps

- adjustable delay can be set in microseconds, milliseconds, feet or meters

- high pass and low pass filters

- adjustable input gain to set the input level for each channel independently

- white noise and pink noise generator

- limiter for each channel with adjustable attack and released times

all of the above is controlled from your computer with a very intuitive interface....

some of the above features are obviously designed for the pro market using multiple drivers and or multiple amps.... the module has inputs as well as outputs so you can hook another amp directly to this amp.... and control that amp as well....

what interested me about all of the above was the very adjustable eq available in a pure digital mode... i've listened to many eq's over the years and was always dissatisfied with the amount of noise that they added into the system.....

cost of this module is about $450 online..... not exactly cheap but you are getting an extreme amount of flexibility without giving up any more space in your rack....

ftp://208.187.38.55/Carver/Manuals/specs/ion-dsp-spec.pdf

SWG255 · « **Reply #92 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 05:14 pm »

This is one interesting advantage of buying a piece of pro gear. According to nathan at 8th Nerve, the amplifiers' input modules are on cards, which can be replaced easily. Perhaps Carver Pro can be talked into building an audiophile oriented input module on such a card. This would have high-quality RCA and XLR inputs and higher quality capacitors etc. in the input signal path. My ZR 1600 is on the way, and I can't wait to start burning it in. Given the price I paid for it, and the potential for upgrading it with the DSP or other input module, this thing is only going to disappoint me if it sounds lousy after burn-in, and I haven't heard anyone yet say that. We'll see.

Quote from: RussKon

back to the carver zr amps.....

i was intrigued by the optional input modules that are available for the zr1000 and zr1600....esp the ion media dsp tools module....

i contacted carver directly and was very pleased with the information that i received .... this module takes your analog input signal and converts into a digital signal.... at that point you have following following options per channel:

- 28 bands of paragraphic equalization - each fixed band has adjustable Q from one octave to 1/12 oc ...

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #93 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 05:42 pm »

At 200 hrs the ZR1600 is beginning to sound quite good. There is an issue with thermal stability which affects its sound quality. I have defeated the fan (intolerably loud) and the unit took several days to stop cycling thermally, to the point where it idles or runs at moderate volume while slightly warm to the touch.

On to John Curl's test bench next, then critical comparitive listening.

SWG255 · « **Reply #94 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 06:28 pm »

Brian,

Pardon me, but i don't understand what you mean by "it took several days...thermally cycles at idle or moderate volume". I understand that the amp might run warm and exhibit sonic problems or shutdown when it is too hot, but you seem to be suggesting it has somehow 'cured itself" of these problems after several days. Is this what you mean? I suspect I've just misunderstood you. I may leave my unit's fan running while it breaks in, especially because i can place it in a large cupboard and maybe that will cut down on the volume at my listening position. I have my Threshold 4000 in the same cupboard, and although it gets warm in there, the amp has never had a problem.

Thanks in advance for the clarification on the thermal issue.

Quote from: Brian Cheney

At 200 hrs the ZR1600 is beginning to sound quite good. There is an issue with thermal stability which affects its sound quality. I have defeated the fan (intolerably loud) and the unit took several days to stop cycling thermally, to the point where it idles or runs at moderate volume while slightly warm to the touch.

On to John Curl's test bench next, then critical comparitive listening.

JCC · « **Reply #95 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 06:50 pm »

There is a review written by Andrew Roberts on ProAudio Review at the following URL:

http://www.proaudioreview.com/par/july03/carver_zr1600.shtml

The summary of this review states the following:

"The ZR1600, with its great sound, light weight, and inventive input modules, may well be the next "big hit" in amplifier land. It has features that will appeal to touring companies, installers and even studios. In fact, there are some very kind words being written about the ZR in audiophile chat rooms (where anything not Class A is usually sneered at). At $1,189, it is an incredibly good deal."

You might find it interesting.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #96 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 09:04 pm »

I will read any reviews later. No reviewer has the equipment, experience and measurement expertise at my disposal, and I approach the unit as a piece of high end gear, not touring equipment.

For example, there are no heatsinks on the ZR series amps. The "Tripath modules", here 3 of them, are attached to the sides of a wind tunnel with a noisy 2.5" fan driving the airstream. No audiophile is going to tolerate the fan noise. Defeating the fan made the unit heat up precipitously, then gradually stabilize over 3 days to the point where the chassis is moderately warm at idle or low level play.

Testing will be done with the fan working, listening done with the fan disabled. I am sure no prosound reviewer bothered to do this, or even cared.

RussKon · « **Reply #97 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 11:18 pm »

No reviewer has the equipment, experience and measurement expertise at my disposal

brian....with that type of qualification i am eagerly looking forward to your evaluation........

8thnerve · « **Reply #98 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 11:56 pm »

Quote from: Brian Cheney

For example, there are no heatsinks on the ZR series amps. The "Tripath modules", here 3 of them, are attached to the sides of a wind tunnel with a noisy 2.5" fan driving the airstream. No audiophile is going to tolerate the fan noise. Defeating the fan made the unit heat up precipitously, then gradually stabiliz ...

Brian,

There are heatsinks inside that wind tunnel. I have tried removing the steel air guide but it requires removing the main circuit board due to two screws inserted from underneath the board into the steel air duct. Not that I won't do it, but I just have not done it yet. Reps at Carver agree with me that it will cool better without the tunnel on when the fan is disabled, since more air will be able to get to the two large heat sinks. Even with my 1600 running continuously for 38 hours at moderate levels driving Maggie 1.6QRs (85db @ 4 Ohms) it is not hot but warm on the top. And that is WITH the air duct thing on.

I am excited to see what the test results show. I think replacement of the cheap computer ribbon cable that is carrying the input signal to the main board will make a significant difference in the sound quality as well. That is the first mod I plan to perform on this overachiever.

Thanks again for your input on this piece.

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #99 on:** 5 Oct 2003, 01:55 am »

I'm sure there will be a lot more to do than replace a cable. The inputs are AC coupled, through Lord knows what quality cap. We'll see how the amp tests, then how it sounds against a few other good amps.