Carver ZR/TriPath Amps

Rob Babcock · « **on:** 16 Sep 2003, 04:32 am »

Thought I'd start up a discussion here, in the 2 Ch Circle, where it's more topical.

Sounds like this does use the same TriPath digital technology that many other well regarded amps use, and despite the "Pro Gear" heritage, it may be a good home amp. Has anyone tried them in any non-subwoofer application? Certainly they pump out a lot of power for the money.

Any input here would be welcome, particularly direct experience with the Carver ZR line.

Thanks.

Rob

cyounkman · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 05:06 am »

I'll second the interest...

I think one of the Ref3A owners has used one... I've PM'ed him.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 05:10 am »

I guess as a perpetually broke gearhead, I yearn to ferret out the good stuff that's somewhat affordable. It would be nice if the ZR amps sound good...

Dmason · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 01:17 pm »

Hi Chris, got yer message...First, there is alot of confusion out there about the name, Carver. Carver Pro is a completely different company, similar in first name only to the other Carver, as in Sunfire, and as in overpriced. Carver Pro are small, and are owned by Phoenix Gold, who for years have had their hand in very high quality cabling for the pro audio industry.

I own a ZR 1000 amp, and after owning a long line of exceptional audio toys, can say with some authority, that to these ears and those of the other audiophool owners I personally know, these amps are the best we have ever heard at any price, in any implemenatation, I kid you not. There is a long and provocative thread from just last week on AA, under amps, about this topic. A fun and informed discussion, I suggest you read the whole thing.

I also have an inexpensive new Sony AVD C70ES all in one player which employs not Tripath but as we recently found out, another topology with digital signal fed directly to the digital amp, sounds fabulous, remarkably similar sonic signature, with all the bells and whistles. I should add that this little box is replacing an outstanding AES Cary SuperAmp, because to my ears, digital amps give abit of that sound, although sound neither like SS OR tubes, --and should not apologise for that fact. Truth is, there is a revolution going on in audio, and the Boat Anchor Bunch will, in coming months and years, try to ignore it, but the High end sound is getting verrrrry down to earth.....if you still wish to be extorted, Audio Research will sell you a Tripath amp for several thousands of dollars, or Bel Canto, and you can have snazzy CNC machined stainless faceplates, OR, you can go the ZR route. I paid $760 for something that sounds alot and I mean ALOT like my old 300B triode, but at 225 wpc, if it had tubes would likely cost me about $50,000. So, there are the facts, go have a read, when you are ready, let me know, til then Enjoy Your Music.

...ps: here is a little bait: fed a diet of digital amplification, the Reference de Capos don't suck either!!!!

cyounkman · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 04:43 pm »

Glad you could stop by!

Here's the big thread, I think, called Carver Pro ZR versus Audiosource 6.1T / 6.2T Tripath Amps in the Amp/Preamp Asylum...

There's another thread on dealers: Dealers for Carver ZR Amps?

Anyway, thanks for getting back. I had been hearing a lot of buzz on these amps, and really wanted to get a solid recommendation from someone I knew.

Do these amps have digital input? This option is incredible because it should theoretically give you incredible sound for the price of a trasnport, digital cable and amp. I have read that the problem in doing this is in the fact that the sampling frequency of the amp chips is on the order of 500 khz or something, and the math involved in making a 44.1 khz input work is very difficult/expensive. (There was some discussion in the Solar Hi Fi circle, who are apparently experimenting w this technology as well.)

Thank you for your tantalizing tidbit on the de capos, which are always a bitchy arbiter of amplifier quality... Care to share any more? Compare and contrast the AES Super?

So... you're running how many watts into them? I would think the smallest amp in the line would be more than enough power, if the quality of the power lives up to your description ... no? Just make sure you don't launch your expensive drivers into your rear wall...

Dmason · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 06:17 pm »

The Sony AVD 70 is about 100 and the ZR1000 is 225 of your-earth-watts- @8Ohms. I would never dare, nor have I tried the ZR with the de Capos. The AVD sounds just great, SACD of Miles Davis direct digital into the amp makes the Sony the champ from an engineering/audio ideal standpoint. I mean, it just plain sounds fantastic Miles-SACD-direct digital amp--de Capos? It doesn't get much better. Like I said, I only "tried" the deCapos, I am using a pair of Usher X719 for this thing, and the ZR, worse yet is feeding a pair of Coincidents which are made for SET amps, but SOUND unbelieveable with the Carver ZR. No, the volume control doesn't get turned up too much.

The AES is the value champ of the PP crowd. It is a very fast amp, with plenty of headroom to power anything, including bigger Dynaudios. For that type of amp, one should look no further, and they are found on A'gon all the time. BUt first you should try -Chris- to replace your thing with one of the Sony AVD, the smaller AVD S50 ES is about 80wpc, and can be had for $400US online. Just do it.

cyounkman · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 07:28 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

The AVD sounds just great, SACD of Miles Davis direct digital into the amp makes the Sony the champ from an engineering/audio ideal standpoint. I mean, it just plain sounds fantastic Miles-SACD-direct digital amp--de Capos? It doesn't get much better. ...
BUt first you should try -Chris- to replace your thing with one of the Sony AVD, the smaller AVD S50 ES is about 80wpc, and can be had for $400US online. Just do it.

Colour me skeptical... as expected. How is your little Sony wonder with redbook cd's and with other analog inputs? I think I own three sacds...

Actually I was thinking of the smaller Carver ZR500, at a more reasonable 95 watts. Eh? Although it seems they're using balanced or 1/4" inputs and Neutrik outputs... A pain...

Dmason · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 08:26 pm »

"I am so skeptical, I can no longer afford to doubt" -Dr J Alan Hynek

Redbook CD sounds great on the AVD, again, direct to digital, seems to be the big deal here; I tested with some well re-mastered stuff and great guns. OR, take the dough you save on the Sony, get a Nixon TubeDAC, and use the AUX inputs with your trans., or the AVD, both ways will work, and the Nixon DAC sounds fabulous with the Sony.

The ZR500 was my first purchase, and....WOW....I had no idea it would sound THAT good, about a year ago it was. BUt then you are into Neutrik adaptors, or reworked cabling, both for input (XLR) and Out, (Neutrik Speakon.) To do the amps right you should take advantage of their true balanced nature, from source to speaker out. It is just that the Sony will get you there alot faster. IMHO, the Carver wins out...hope this clouds the issue....

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 09:32 pm »

Is fan noise an issue at all with the Carvers? I normally wouldn't even look at a fan cooled amp, but my suspicion is that a digital amp would run cool enough that the fan would rarely come on.

Hmmm...the ZR's are that good, huh? At the price, I'm certainly intrigued. Are they particularly sensitive to cabling changes, in your opinion?

Dmason · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 10:15 pm »

they all have fans because they are designed to be pushed into a rack full of 19" rackmount gear which generate heat; The ZR runs almost dead cold even when called upon to rock. I simply disconnected the fan on mine, tha's all. They seem to be pretty good about cabling, no one I know of has bothered to change, even when experimenting. We have found that Alpha Core M1/2 sounds pretty darn Phat, and I can hear the leading edges of the horn flares of the five Euphoniums of the London Symphony, resonating, stage left,.....and I am in the kitchen. Think Holographic sound, folks. Think frequency response from DC to infinity....There is a great review by a friend in AudioAsylum SS reviews, with some mini reviews, as well. these are by hard-core audiophool types known to me to be critical listeners.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 10:22 pm »

Thanks, DMason. I checked out the the link to your reviews, very informative.

On the subject of inputs: do the ZRs have RCA inputs at all? Or just balanced inputs? The Carver site didn't have a lot of details: in the pictures it looked like they sport 5 way binding posts, but the input wasn't clear. It'd suck to need adapters, but I guess that wouldn't be that big a deal. For the record, I'm a bit of a "cable agnostic". What do you use for cables with yours right now?

As the impatient preorder-er of a certain Thia companies monobloc, I'm starting to look at other options. Sounds like the ZR-1000 might be just the ticket.

Dmason · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 10:45 pm »

If by Thia you mean, "Thai," as in Norh, I would not hold my breath; I read they are having some real problems, and being very un-responsive, sorta like...ignoring their creditors. Besides, it is attempting to approximate the sound of digital amps. Get your money back, it is an omen, directing you to decide, based on this thread. The gods will it so.

The ZR500 accepts only balanced. ZR1000/1600 has 1/4" output for speakers. My suggestion is to use the inexpensive NHT PVC passive attenuator as a volume control. This is a great unit and about $115 at fullcompass.com.

I am using Alpha Core Goertz M2 speaker cable, bought in bulk and fitted Neutrik speakons. INput cable also was hardwired directly to the input terminals, having removed the input jacks altogether, using a hardwired DaCT attenuator in line and mounted to the frontplane of the amp. this is an attenuator most worthy of the amps' Sonic Glory, topped off with a funky, clunky 1" Audio Note 24K gold knob from partsconnexion...Next I will install the bent audio DaCT remote kit, making mine a custom remote controlled volume "integrated" ZR, the only one around.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 10:56 pm »

I imagine one could DIY some cables w/ RCAs on one end and the appropriate balanced plug on the other. I actually have a couple of those laying around, in fact, that I bought for use w/my Behringer parametric EQ. The place I bought the cables went out of business, however.

Yeah, I don't want to make too much out of the deal w/ nOrh. The LA II looks to be a great deal IF they ever ship. I've been pretty patient, as I'm getting by fine with what I have. I've merely preordered; no money has changed hands. I've given 'em the benefit of the doubt thus far, but as MB hasn't been around here for a couple of weeks, I'm starting to wonder.

Thanks for all the advice & info. I sometimes am skeptical when folks sing the praised of pro gear, but a good peice of gear is a good peice of gear, irregardless of aethetics.

Dmason · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 11:01 pm »

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice...

It is a good enough amp that I found my exceptional tube pre amp only got in the way and made for a thin haze over the proceedings...

I am skeptical of Behringer anything, used for audio. How's that EQ work for you? I could use a good parametric in this rather challenging room of mine...

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 11:19 pm »

The Behringer works very well- I use a Feedback Destroyer Pro 1124P. This is fed by the low pass of an external electronic X-over, so the FDP is only seeing the subwoofer feed. Works very well. Its built in AD converters are sufficiently transparent for bass use. It really improved the bass in my room.

Bill from 8th Nerve is looking to maybe stock the ZR line, and I'm getting a price quote.

I'm the sort of guy that is very deliberate with my purchases, and lately I'm not made of money. But the ZR-1000 is starting to look very good to me.

Jonathan · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 01:34 am »

I confess, I'm intrigued. Especially about the Sony all-in-one unit. I could sell my Unico integrated, Pioneer PD-65 CD player, and my Sony NS500V and have enough for the Sony, a good, cheap phono preamp (Hagerman Bugle?), a subwoofer (Adire Rava?), the tweeter upgrade for my De Capo speakers, PLUS enough left over to take my wife out for a very nice dinner (that's the least I'd have to do if I decide to do this. She gets pissed every time I change anything in my system).

This all sounds too good to be true.

On the other hand, Crutchfield sells the Sony C70ES for $699, and they have a great trial/return policy--they'll even pay shipping on the way back if you decide you don't want the unit within 30 days. I may just have to buy one and compare--if it's not better, I'll just send it back.

I'm less inclined to go with the Carver amp because I'd stilll have to shop for a new preamp and deal with all of those cable conversions. I suppose a decent pro audio shop would have all the appropriate balanced to RCA and Neutrik to spades cables, but it all seems like a big hassle compared to buying the Sony all in one box.

Any thoughts?

Jon

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 01:38 am »

I dunno what the power rating is for the Sony rig. Myself, I won't buy a new amp that doesn't produce at least 150 Watts, and 200 would be better. I have a larger room and will use them for HT, too. Plus I'd rather err on the side of extra power to that when the day inevitably comes to get new speakers, I can pretty much be assured the amps I've got will run 'em okay. This means high power and the ability to drive low impedance loads without complaint.

Dmason · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 02:13 am »

The Carvers have power to burn, these are a high current design, and the dynamics to go with, but not that sense of exaggerated dynamics I can hear with PP transistor jobs..

When I evolved to the Tripath Paradigm, I had enough left over to take my gal to Tahiti. No joke!

The AVD series are 80 and 100 wpc /8. The digital amps have alot of headroom, along the lines of tubes somehow, and if you have speakers over about 87db, it is plenty. both amp topologies sound Wonderful...

Hantra · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 02:17 am »

Quote

On the other hand, Crutchfield sells the Sony C70ES for $699, and they have a great trial/return policy--they'll even pay shipping on the way back if you decide you don't want the unit within 30 days.

Go to Yahoo shopping. I save well over $100 from Crutchfield's pricing on my AVD50ES.

8thnerve · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 02:54 am »

Quote from: Jonathan

I'm less inclined to go with the Carver amp because I'd stilll have to shop for a new preamp and deal with all of those cable conversions. I suppose a decent pro audio shop would have all the appropriate balanced to RCA and Neutrik to spades cables, but it all seems like a big hassle compared to buying the Sony all in one box.

The cables aren't really a hassle. All you need is a Female RCA to Male XLR adaptor and you can use RCA interconnects. You can buy basic ones for around $30 a pair or nice Ayre or Cardas ones for around $60 a pair. Then you are free to use whatever cable you want.