[Bob in St. Louis]

Hi Fellas,
The wife and I are tired of our (cheapo) 6.1MP Kodak C633 digital camera. Outdoors it takes very nice photos, but indoors they're horrible, dark, useless pictures. Faces are washed out and the backgrounds are dark.

So.... I'm looking for a (used?) SLR with the capability of adding an adjustable flash unit. We're thinking about something in the several hundred dollar range. She's asked me to do research on the subject and see what's available. This is not an area I'm too familiar with and have just begun to see what's out there. Regarding lens' first priority would be one for indoor shots, < 12' or so. Second priority would be a telephoto. You know, one for the kids soccer games type of lens.
Her main goal for the camera would be photographing and printing pics of the kids.
The unit would need to be something with an "idiot button". Meaning something that a soccer mom can use without having to take a night class to learn it's operation. But then have the flexability and capability to perform fancier operations. Maybe a camera like this doesn't even exist?

Any help, links, advice, model recommendations is much appreciated.

Bob

p.s. And NO, I didn't just call my wife an idiot. 

[JohnR]

Nikon D40?

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40/

[Bob in St. Louis]

Nice.
This looks like a good price considering all the extras. The only other thing I'd need is a zoom lens.
Whatcha think John?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-D40-Digital-SLR-Camera-2-LENS-2GB-PKG-NEW_W0QQitemZ110194833026QQihZ001QQcategoryZ150130QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Bob

[Bob in St. Louis]

Amazon has camera and 18-55mm lens only for $450
Dells Outlet store has the same thing for $465.
The one on Ebay for $468 is a great bargin with all the extras.

Bob

[BRILEY804]

you have a message....

[drphoto]

I'm really impressed w/ my friend's Canon Rebel XT (not XTi) It has less noise than my Gen1 1Ds.

[8thnerve]

I fully endorse the Nikon DSLRs.  I went with the D80, but I spent a bit of time with the D40, D40x, D80 and Canon 400D XTi, and 30D.  Although Canon is more popular, especially at the entry level (D40 vs. 400D XTi) I prefer the Nikon color balance better.  These are all small points since the quality of all these cameras is superb, and you can easily change color balance with Aperature, or Adobe Photoshop or Lightroom.

So, you won't be unhappy with a D40, and the easy mode works very well.  There is even an excellent Nikon site call Digitutor (here is a link for the D40 http://www.nikondigitutor.com/eng/d40/index.shtml) that gives multimedia lessons on making the most of your camera, from beginner info to advanced features and shooting situations.  And it is exactly tailored to the camera that you are using.

Enjoy!

[Vapor Audio]

Hey Bob, I have a Nikon D70s that I don't use much ... it has about 200 total shutter actuations.  If you're interested I'll bring it to Scott's Christmas party and you can take a look.

[Bob in St. Louis]

JohnR, Thank you for giving the recommendation Sir!

Everybody, Thank you for your recommendations.
 
Brad, PM received, and returned.   

Ryan,  Oops. I bought the D40. Dammit man. Just minutes before you posted.
it was definitely NOT my intention to purchase a camera today. Hell, I had intended on researching for several days at least. But without giving all the long drawn out sorted details, the planets aligned, and well...Here I am. Proud new owner of a D40 with a bagful of goodies. I'd have loved to have given your D70 a whirl dude. Sorry about that. Kind of a long story, but I had to jump.

Gentlemen, thank you all for the recommendations. I won't feel too bad about the D40. It looks like it's well received.

Bob

[Bob in St. Louis]

By the way, I didn't get the bundle that I had linked to earlier.
I bought a different bundle. Item # 110197693675 to be specific. It was $608 with free shipping.
Just like this rig:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110194962104&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=110197693675&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

[JohnR]

Bob, I hate to tell you this, but the 70-300mm lens there won't autofocus with the D40....

[Bob in St. Louis]

  WHAT?

[JohnR]

The D40 will autofocus only with AF-S lenses, of which there are plenty but that isn't one of them. It shouldn't even be included in a "kit" with the D40. Why it is... either the seller is dishonest or perhaps just clueless. That is a very non-standard "kit" they have put together...

[Bob in St. Louis]

Tell me if I'm justifying my purchase by thinking this, or am I just plain stupid:

The body itself goes for $450-$550 depending on where you look. The tripods, filters, SD card etc... make up the difference. The 18-55 lens is "THE" lens the wife will use. The tele lens will become a toy. Maybe it'll help me learn somethings. Maybe. 98% of what will be taken will be indoors and close up (family pics). I'm the "main" outdoor 'photographer' in the house. I can suffer for a while with manual focus. The only outdoor activity that would require a photographer with manual focus to have some amount of dexterity and agility would be 8-10 soccer games a year. Of course, I'd be the photographer for those. The rest of outdoor photos are staged shots of the children (zoo, vacations, etc...) and could use the other lens.

I've not paid for the item yet. But I'm sure "The Wrath of EBay" will reign Hell down on me if I can't provide a very good reason to back out now.

Is the other lens OK? I see it's an AF-S, but otherwise is it OK?

I may get the wife to go a little higher for the price, but it won't be much. What we need is:
- Camera
- Lens (normal, slightly wide, indoor)
- Flash
That's it.

What I'd like to have ('cause I've never had one):
- Telephoto lens

She's perfectly happy with the buying decision as it is.


shit


What have I done 


Bob

[cliffy]

Try and contact the seller and ask them to include a lense that you can actually use instead of the 70-300mm.  Nikon has a 55-200 AF-S or even better the 55-200 AF-S VR.  I doubt they will give you the latter, but you never know.  The seller really should know better and they should correct an honest mistake.

Good luck and good choice on the camera.  My wife loves hers.  (She has the VR lense coming for Christmas.)

[JohnR]

Hi Bob, I just typed up a long post with lens info, I'll post that now and then answer your new post.

----

These are suitable lenses for a D40 kit. Sorry Bob, I should have written more last night but I was just about to go to bed.

AF-S DX Zoom-NIKKOR 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G ED II

This is the standard kit lens. Also and incidentally the only AF lens I actually own... It's very light and on the D40 makes a really light-handling and responsive package. Image quality is good, considering the weight and cost. Main drawback is that 55mm on the long end can feel a little short.

AF-S DX Zoom-NIKKOR 55-200mm f/4-5.6G ED

This is or used to be the second lens in the two-lens D40 kit. I personally didn't like the feel of it. It's been superseded by the VR version, I believe, which is probably a better one to go for.

AF-S DX VR Zoom-NIKKOR 55-200mm f/4-5.6G IF-ED

The VR ("vibration reduction") version of the 55-200. Don't know much about it, to be honest. Note that all the letters in the lens name are important!

AF-S VR Zoom-NIKKOR 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED

By all accounts a very nice lens at this level and 300mm will give some nice reach for kids games without getting silly about it. The VR will help with camera shake. Price is a fair bit higher than the above lenses though.... Note that Nikon makes and has made loads of different 70-300 lenses. This is the version to get for the D40.

AF-S DX Zoom-NIKKOR 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED

This is or used to be the kit lens for the D80, I believe. A number of retailers now offer it as a kit with the D40. A good option if you want a little more reach than the 18-55 but don't need a long telephoto. A lot heavier though and will make the combo "lens-heavy" so you would want to handle it first.

AF-S DX VR Zoom-NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED

Very wide 11x zoom range. More distortion than the lower-range zooms but I doubt it's likely to be a problem unless shooting architecture. There are some people here who have one who could comment. Getting pricy now though (quite a bit more than the body).

Note that all the above are relatively "slow" lenses and typically have maximum aperture of f/5.6 (at one end of the zoom range). Fast lenses, however, especially in the long zooms, are quite a bit more expensive.

[JohnR]

I've not paid for the item yet.

I would suggest hold on paying for at least another day then so you can think it through. You're allowed to do that

More in a minute, I've run out of coffee and tradition demands I go get some!

[Bob in St. Louis]

Sorry Bob, I should have written more last night but I was just about to go to bed.

More in a minute, I've run out of coffee and tradition demands I go get some!

  When I started this thread, I was the one drinking coffee. I've since moved on to soda, then beer, now red wine.  aa
It took me a minute to figure out what you meant by "last night", since this has all transpired "today" for me. 
Then I remembered you live, "way over there and down quite a bit". 

OK, serious now.....
Some very good info you've posted/linked to John. That'll take me some time to sift through. Thank you VERY MUCH for that. I'll have to finish reading in the morning. MY morning. 

Bob

[JohnR]

Heh, I've started being stubborn and making people think in my time zone Or confusing them by it anyway

Is the other lens OK? I see it's an AF-S, but otherwise is it OK?

EDIT: hold the press. No, I don't think this is a good one either. See next post.

I may get the wife to go a little higher for the price, but it won't be much. What we need is:
- Camera
- Lens (normal, slightly wide, indoor)
- Flash
That's it.

The single lens kit will do that for you. The D40 does have a flash on it, it's not as powerful as an off-board flash, but it works well. The D40 and I assume other modern DSLRs as well are much better at getting the amount of flash output right than they used to be. The current Nikon flashes will presumably do the same but with more power and flexibility, bounce flash, etc. The flash in that kit - who knows what it will do. I'm not being a Nikon fanboy here but flash compatibility is a tricky area (I'm only just figuring it out now) and unless you want to experiment with manual flash I would stick with the onboard flash for now and aim to get an SB-400 or SB-600 later.

What I'd like to have ('cause I've never had one):
- Telephoto lens

This is where it can get a little more expensive. I currently have a Tamron SP 60-300 zoom and a Nikkor ED AIS 180mm lens, but these are manual focus only. (And manual metering, they're old lenses...) They work fine but I don't think I would recommend them on a D40 for kids sports and so on. The D40 has a "digital rangefinder" that lights up in the viewfinder when it thinks the lens is focussed, but there is no split image or fresnel focussing aid.

If you're happy with manual focussing there are lots of options on the used market. Heck, I have an 80-200 off-brand zoom I will send you if you do get a D40 and want to try manual focussing with a tele!

Amazon lists the AF-S VR 70-300mm lens at $463 and the AF-S VR 55-200 at $203. Also of course lots of customer reviews. Well, at less than half the price of the 70-300, the 55-200 is looking pretty good...

For closeups, the kit 18-55mm focuses to under a foot, which is pretty close to macro. I'll post an example in a minute.

Can you tell I'm trying to talk you out of that kit? It's not the end of the world or anything, the D40+18-55mm part is fine... but I don't think you'll be very happy with the second lens. FWIW if you decide to get back to the seller here's "proof" that they need to offer you another option or let you back out: Ken Rockwell says "Does not work with the new Nikon D40."

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/70300g.htm

It would only be fair to mention that there are other product offerings that compete with the D40. Especially in the twin-lens kit area, the Olympus E-410 and Canon D400 are probably worth a look (I have no idea about pricing or performance or anything, just throwing these out there). I love that I can swap lenses between my D40 and film cameras, and can get almost any old Nikon lens and use it, but for a first SLR purchase that isn't a consideration. One criticism of the D40 is that it has only three AF spots. I personally don't care about that as I always use the central spot and focus lock if I need to.

I hope you didn't think that buying a camera was going to be simple

JohnR

[JohnR]

Is the other lens OK? I see it's an AF-S, but otherwise is it OK?

Above I initially said "yes it's fine." But then I thought for a second and guess what, the answer is "not really." When you look closely at the lens in that kit, it is an older version of this lens. The current version and the version that you would expect with a D40 is the "G II" version. According to Thom Hogan,

"Nikon introduced a second version of this lens with the D40. Optically and physically, the new version is the same. The primary difference is that the internal AF-S motor has been improved slightly, which should result in slightly faster and more accurate focusing. The new version is identified by a "II" immediately after the "G" in the identification plate on the lens."

http://www.bythom.com/1855lens.htm

Does it make any practical difference? Maybe not. But honestly why get the superseded old stock one with a new camera? To be honest this makes me very suspicious of everything in that kit.

JohnR