Couple of turntable set up questions...

strider · « **on:** 13 Nov 2007, 03:52 pm »

After reading a bunch of threads on turntables and the importance of the set up, I decided to go over mine again. The table's a Pro-ject Debut III. First question is on setting the tracking force. The Debut's got a tracking force of 17.5 Mn, according to the manual: http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/en/manual/manual_debut.pdf page 6 , to be exact. (Sorry, can't link directly to the page, nor could I figure out how to insert the link into the word "manual".) I'm assuming that Mn stands for Newton meters. Can I convert this into grams so I can buy a tracking force scale? The markings on the adjustment knob provided with the table aren't what I'd call precise. Second, with this tables limited adjustments, do I have provisions to accomodate a mat with a greater thickness? I've heard good things about Herbie's Way Excellent Mat. Thanks in advance,

Ben

Rashiki · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 07:19 pm »

I have the same turntable. I was able to adjust the tracking force using the using the adjustment knob, then tested it with some cheap vinyl (99c at the Virgin Megastore).

At first I assumed that the measurements in mN are actually Nm or Newton-meters, but Newton-meters is a measure of torque, not force and 17.5 Nm is quite a lot of torque. So, I'm guessing that the measurement is actually millNewtons and the grams measure is a measurement of gram-force. The conversion from 1 milliNewton to grams of force is 0.101971621, so 17.5mN would be 1.785 g. Stylus tracking force in grams is usually in the range of 0.1 to 3.0 gm, so this seems reasonable.

-Rob

Jazz and Baroque · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 07:42 pm »

That's right. The manual has "mN" for milli-Newtons, not "Mn". Your conversion is right on.

Mike

strider · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 08:37 pm »

Quote from: Rashiki on 13 Nov 2007, 07:19 pm

At first I assumed that the measurements in mN are actually Nm or Newton-meters, but Newton-meters is a measure of torque, not force and 17.5 Nm is quite a lot of torque. So, I'm guessing that the measurement is actually millNewtons and the grams measure is a measurement of gram-force. The conversion from 1 milliNewton to grams of force is 0.101971621, so 17.5mN would be 1.785 g. Stylus tracking force in grams is usually in the range of 0.1 to 3.0 gm, so this seems reasonable.

-Rob

Thanks Rob!
That makes sense now! To think, I was once a physics major in college. I guess my decision to switch majors wasn't the worst one I've ever made.
Perusing some more since I posted, I'm assuming I'd want to change the VTA to accomodate for a mat with an increased thickness. Am I correct in saying that this is non-adjustable on this table?

Rashiki · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Nov 2007, 05:40 am »

I don't know about adjusting the VTA, but the manual does describe how to adjust the azimuth (they call it azimut). I really don't know how they are related, if they are related.

I plan on getting some sort of replacement mat, but I don't know which one. The first upgrade I plan on making to my debut is to get the Pro-Ject speedbox. I hate having to change the belt to switch between 33 and 45RPM and I've heard good things about the speedbox.

-Rob

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Nov 2007, 04:03 pm »

Hopefully you guys are still checking this...

I had a Debut 3 for a little while, then upgraded to an Xpression.

Going from the stock felt mat to Herbie's mat doesn't require changing VTA. Its very slightly thicker than the stock felt mat. Herbie's mat is a pretty good upgrade. I'd do this after a few other things though.

The Speed Box isn't just a convenience upgrade, its a big sonic upgrade. IMO it makes the table competitive with the Rega tables in the PRaT aspect (Pace, rythym, and timing).

The biggest immediate upgrade you can make IMO is upgrading the cartridge. The stock Ortofon OM cartridge is an outdated design that isn't designed to work with today's tables. I'm not sure of the technical explaination, but I believe it was designed to be used on low mass tonearms, whereas today's tonearms are medium mass. Maybe the other way around, substitute light for heavy, etc. I'm not sure.

Before trying the mat and/or Speedbox, try a different cartridge. The Grado line is very good. I would blindly recommend the Blue or Red. I don't know if I'd go higher than that. If you've upgraded the cartridge, I'd do the Speedbox, then do the mat. I don't think the upgrades will be anywhere near as noticable without a different cartridge.

All this is assuming that the rest of your system is revealing enough, and your vinyl is clean/good enough to hear the differences.

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Nov 2007, 04:07 pm »

One other thing -
The tracking force is dictated by the cartridge, not the tonearm. The tonearm has a range of minimum and maximum tracking force.

Look up the cartridge's recommended tracking force, then take it from there. Most usually track somewhere around 1.5 grams.

strider · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Nov 2007, 07:50 pm »

Thanks for the replies, Stu. Good to hear about being able to use a different mat on there, that stock felt one just seems like an afterthought to me. I had given some thought into the Speedbox after reading what others have said about the improvements it provides. I hadn't, to be honest, thought about replacing the cartridge until you mentioned it. I know that Ortofon recently replaced that line of cartridges, so it does make sense that it might be an older design. Did you upgrade yours with one of the Grados? The Blue and Red cartridges are certainly in the price range I'd consider if I were to replace the cartridge on mine; I can't see putting a cartridge any more expensive on a turntable that is $300 brand new.

Wayner · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 Nov 2007, 09:57 pm »

Grado's are good cartridges with the right turntable. They do have tracking issues that some table/arm combos expose. Perhaps there are better choices out there.

Wayner

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 02:19 am »

I didn't upgrade the cartridge on the Debut. I upgraded the table first. I haven't heard about Grado's problems tracking before. Not that I think its untrue. The only issue I've heard concerning Grados in general (including the Prestige series) is hum problems. Its due to the design Grado uses. Its one of those trade-offs in design - in some instances it'll hum, in systems that it doesn't it sounds better than if they shielded it better.

The humming is usually fixed by moving the table further away from the amp and/or pre-amp. On some tables it'll hum regardless. In all fairness, this is true of just about any cartridge. It seems to happen more often with Grados.

Keep in mind that the Debut 3 is an entry level deck. Its a great entry level deck, just don't expect it to compete with stuff priced more. Then again, if you get a better cartridge, Speedbox, and mat, it'll show you the upgrades. Keeping cartridges within the Grado Blue or Red price point is most likely your best bet. Anything more most likely won't be worth the extra money.

Cartridge brand alternatives may be the new Ortofon line (I don't know prices), Goldring, and Audio Technica. There's an Audio Technica cartridge priced about $100 that gets some great press. I haven't heard it to comment either way. I threw out the Grado recommendation due to price and personal experience with them (not on this table though). I haven't heard anyone talk bad about their sound quality. They do everything right (within bugetary expectations), and don't try to go where they shouldn't.

One last thought regarding the mat...
The stock felt mat may seem like an afterthought, but its not. A lot of good tables use felt mats. Like everything else, they have their pros and cons.

strider · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 07:18 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 27 Nov 2007, 09:57 pm

Grado's are good cartridges with the right turntable. They do have tracking issues that some table/arm combos expose. Perhaps there are better choices out there.

Wayner

Are there any that you'd be willing to suggest? I've gotten a confusion induced headache reading threads in the Vinyl Circle, but one cartridge I've seen mention of that's in my price range is the Audio Technica AT440MLa.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 07:55 pm »

You didn't mention your price range

...but the AT440MLa that you mention is a real set-it-and-forget-it choice under $100.00 (price went up recently in the whole AT line, so few retailers still have it for that now). At $129, it's still likely a very good buy.

Grado's are fantastic...but require a lot of time to get dialed in right. If you don't wanna' bother - get the AT.

I am the resident Grado pimp now at the Vinyl Circle, I love them, but they are not for those that just want an install and enjoy experience.

Ciao, John

strider · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 09:06 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 28 Nov 2007, 07:55 pm

You didn't mention your price range ...but the AT440MLa that you mention is a real set-it-and-forget-it choice under $100.00 (price went up recently in the whole AT line, so few retailers still have it for that now). At $129, it's still likely a very good buy.

Grado's are fantastic...but require a lot of time to get dialed in right. If you don't wanna' bother - get the AT.

I am the resident Grado pimp now at the Vinyl Circle, I love them, but they are not for those that just want an install and enjoy experience.

Ciao, John

Yeah, I guess I didn't really state a price range. I'd like to stay south of $100, but am a bit flexible. My train of thought is that anything more expensive is not going to be money well spent on a TT that's $300 brand new. Far as taking time to get them dialed in, I'm fine with some sweat equity if it's in search of good sound. What would be the differences in setting up a Grado vs the AT?

ricmon · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 09:29 pm »

Strider. I would also suggest you get one of the lp test records. when i moved up from an xperssion to an rm9.1 I then realized how much of an aid they can be in TT setup. And also very enlighting to use as well.

Wayner · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 10:32 pm »

My point is (and I think John will agree) that the Grado may not ever be happy with your table/arm combo and then again, it may perform wonderfully. What you need to find out is if others have had success with that combination. I don't know what the compliance rating of the arm or the Grado cartridge is, you'll have to find out and see if they are compatible. If you use the AT440MLa, the dynamic compliance rating (x10-6 cm/dyne) is 10. This info is off the AT technical paper for the AT440MLa. I have both the AT and the Grado Gold (Longhorn) and they are happy in their respective tables. The Grado is not happy at all in a few tables. However, when the Grado is in the right arm, it will sound fantastic.

W

strider · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Nov 2007, 08:16 pm »

Since dynamic compliance rating is a completely new term to me, I'm guessing more research on my part is going to be required before committing to anything. I did use the cartridge recommendation engine at cartridgedb.com, and came up with the following:

http://www.cartridgedb.com/results_4.asp

I inputted a moving magnet cartridge, $150 or less with up to 5.0mV output.

The one thing I haven't turned up in my search, unfortunately, is someone that's tried out different carts on my table.

Ooops, nevermind. Just check my own link and found it to be dead. I guess the question would be, is the info on cartridgedb.com usually pretty good?

Wayner · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 10:05 pm »

I found out that the compliance rating of all Grado cartridges is 20. Most medium mass tone arms 11-25 grams (effective mass), and will work with fairly well with this cartridge. A high or low mass tone arm may be a problem. The real problem is finding out the information on various tone arms from various manufacturers. My AudioQuest tone arm specifications simply say medium mass. That makes it a little tough to plug into formulas for a more "feel good" value with cartridge compatibility.

BTW, I just put in my Grado Gold into my AudioQuest PT-6 (VPI HW-19 jr) and after some time dialing all the goodies in, I'm happy so far. We'll see haow the rest of the evening goes.

Wayner

Levi · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Dec 2007, 04:41 am »

Hi guys,

How is the VPI - SCOUT TURNTABLE W - JMW-9 TONEARM compared to the Basis 1400 w/rb300 arm?

I may go back to analog again.

My budget is at $2-3K.

Thanks,
Levi

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Dec 2007, 05:58 am »

Quote from: Levi on 1 Dec 2007, 04:41 am

Hi guys,

How is the VPI - SCOUT TURNTABLE W - JMW-9 TONEARM compared to the Basis 1400 w/rb300 arm?

I may go back to analog again. My budget is at $2-3K.

Thanks,
Levi

Really??????? What changed your mind? BTW, I like the VPI more than the Basis, but I admit I've heard the VPI more. There are many other choices than those, though.

SET Man · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Dec 2007, 06:25 am »

Quote from: Levi on 1 Dec 2007, 04:41 am

Hi guys,

How is the VPI - SCOUT TURNTABLE W - JMW-9 TONEARM compared to the Basis 1400 w/rb300 arm?

I may go back to analog again. My budget is at $2-3K.

Thanks,
Levi

Hey!

Really!!!!!!!!

But you said that you preferred the original CD version over the vinyl and Mr. Fremer's CD from his vinyl at November Rave?

I think you've told me before that you used to listen to music with turntable long ago right? But I guess I'm asking the same question as Michael/mcrespo71... what changed your mind?

Man! This is BIG! Levi is getting his groove back!

Anyway if you need help let me know.

Take care
Buddy