[soewhatman]

Hi guys.  I have a strong love for old country western and folk music, and have noticed lots of nice old, and cheap, records at local second hand stores.  In order to get some good use out of them I purchased a second hand record player.  I'm 29.  My folk had a record player.  I remember it, kinda.  I was pretty young.     Just to put in perspective that I know nothing about record players really.

The fellow I purchased the record player from said he used it briefly to copy all his records to tape, and it's sat in storage for the better part of 30 years.  I believe him.  For a device as old as this it looks very clean.  Very few scratches on the dust cover, all the mechanics work great, etc.

Anyways, it's a hitachi ht-460 direct drive turntable, and the headshell (I think that's the correct term for the unit at the end of the tone arm) is an audio technica at23a.

Ok, on to the questions now.

1.  Any idea if this is a MM or MC type headshell?  My pre-amp has a setting for each and I'm not sure which to use, or if it makes any difference.

2.  I'm noticing quite a bit of extra noise in the bass region when playing stereo lp's in stereo mode.  If I turn my pre-amp (an HK 825) to mono mode it cleans up considerably, but of course I lose the benefit of stereo.  Any idea what would be causing this, and how to remedy it?

3.  I plan on opening up the unit and cleaning it well, and also lubricating all moving parts inside.  It is 30 years old afterall.  Should I also clean the needle?  If so, with what and how? 

4.  Should a long period of storage have any adverse effect on anything I should be aware of, particularly the needle?

5.  There are notches on the outside of the platter, and a light that shines on them.  I'm assuming this is used as a gauge when adjusting the speed, I'm just not sure how.  I don't have any instructions for the player, I'm afraid.  Is there a brief description somewhere of how these work?

6.  I'm pretty happy with my investment here, considering that I didn't spend very much money on it.  That said, is this record player worth holding onto and tinkering with, or should I not bother.  What I mean, is should I plan on purchasing a new cartridge or needle or headshell when necessary, or is it simply not worth throwing money at?  I know some of these parts can get expensive fast.

I apologize if some of these questions seem basic, but I really don't know much and I've yet to find a newbie guide to record players.  Go figure.  If anyone knows of one by all means I'd appreciate a link.

Thanks for your time.

Rick.

[Jampot]

This is a very deep and murky abyss you are on the edge of, I hope you are ready for the journey

There is tons of stuff in the archive of the vinyl circle and I'm sure lots of new suggestions will be forthcoming. Our moderator (The Chair Guy, akaTCG and John) won't be able to resist  - he is particularly experienced in the resurection and tweaking of older direct drive tables and I (among many, Im sure) have benefitted from his experience. His masterpiece (with contributions from others) is here -

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22938.0

I keep it on my favourites list for easy reference

Have you googled the table make / name? I did just briefly and was a little dissapointed not to get more good links in the first few pages, but one I did get was this -

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=HSBTHT460

I'm not suggesting that you rush out and buy it. There will be recommendations for replacement cartridges forthcoming.

It seems likely the original cartridge would be MM rather than MC, and even if the stylus is in good nick, the long period of idleness may have allowed the whole thing to stiffen up and need a period of excercise before it comes good. (It may just be knackered of course!)

With regard to the 'noise', it may well be the result of dried on or lack of lube so your intention to service the moving parts is good. See TCG's threadfor all the info.

I got on this early because I'm in UK - John (I think is on the U.S. West coast so it may be some hours yet before he sees your post) will no doubt be along to add his most recent thinking to guide you further.

Good luck and good listening.

Jim

[TheChairGuy]

Hello 

Rick (and Jim/Jampot) - most likely, information on the AT23sa can be found here: http://cartridgedb.com/  If it's one of the AT cartridges with integrated headshells (that is cartridge is permanently adhered to the headshell) it is likely to be one of AT's best efforts of the day (late 70's I think).  So, if you paid little for the set-up, you already scored with the cartridge on it 

I have long thought of resurrecting an old Hitachi direct drive unit.  Hitachi has always been a cutting edge technology company (btw, the Maxell brand is owned by them - for you trivia nuts ).  They had  series called 'Unitorque' that, as memory often serves me, specced out very well and can be bought very cheap used (ebay, otherwise).  This makes it a great candidate for modding.

I looked in my usual sources for info on it and could find nothing. I think, in Hitachi's old nomenclature for TT's, the 3 digit series was higher line than the two digit series models....which should again mean you have one of Hitachi's best efforts on hand to play with now 

Sure, lubricate the moving parts....if you can get any teflon or silicone lube on the tonearm bearing underneath - that will likely be the most benefit (shocking advance, actually, for most mass tonearms of that era).

Then, got get you some Plast-i-Clay (common modelling clay that can be found in Hobby shops) and fill that baby with as much clay as it will hold...without interfering with operation.  10 lbs, maybe more should do it 

Then, you'll likely have the basis of some high quality playback ...and you may find out, as I did after a month or two of experimentation, that vinyl slays CD even for little cash.  Within a few months of my experiment on the JVC deck that Jampot referred to..I sold my $4500 CD transport/DAC and have settled with about $79 worth of CDP for light background music only now.  Vinyl is 75% of my music as it sounds most like real.  It's not at all nostalgia for me at 44 (I'd prefer to do without the hassle of vinyl playback, frankly)....I just choose the format that sounded most like music...and that was and is vinyl.

It'll be a hoot to hear, at 29 y.o. and really not having been brought up on vinyl, your opinion of it 

John

[soewhatman]

Thanks for some good info here to get me started.  I tore into the player this afternoon and have a few observations.

It's hefty.  I think it weights upwards of 20 lbs.  The platter is a heavy milled piece, and the top deck is cast metal I believe.  The sides are chip-board.  Oddly, the bottom is a very thin piece of pressboard.  It is so thin and flexible I'm not sure if a putty/clay would even stick to it in the long run.  Just not a stiff enough base for anything like that to adhere to.  I'm considering just re-making the bottom out of 3/4" mdf or something similar.  A worthwhile endevor? 

I've not had much luck learning anything about the player or headshell with my google-fu, but you are correct in that it is an integrated unit at least.  The only link I've found of any interest is this:

http://www.stereoneedles.com/audio-technica.html

A replacement needle here is $130.  That's far more than I paid for the record player. 

Since I know nothing, what indicates the needle is worn/old and needs replacing?  What in particular should I listen for?  Also, as far as cleaning it goes, I'm planning on using some alcohol and q-tips to clean it a bit.  Any reason this should be a problem?


As far as my opinion of vinyl, so far I have to say I really prefer the sound of James Taylor on vinyl versus CD.  I mention him because as of now he's the only artist for which I have the same albums in both formats.  It just sounds...right.  The oddities of vinyl do not detract at all from the sound of this music I would say. 

I also have a Duke Ellington/Count Basie album, and I really like the way horned instruments sound coming from the record player.

I'm just getting started though.

Rick.

[Wayner]

I wanted to say stuff but John beat me to it.

 

[Jampot]

I'm just getting started though

You can say that again Rick

Ahh... an integrated cartridge. There is an explanation of the different types here -

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm

Although this site is particularly concerned with Technics,there is plenty of good info. Arm and cartridge geometry don't alter over much and it will be possible to buy a universal headshell and a replacement cartridge for less than $130. That said if the existing cartridge is good there may be no need.

Agreed, the flimsy bottom doesn't lend it self to the application of damping. A good solid shelf or butchers block cutting board will do wonders (I presume you have it set as level as possible on whatever it sits on just now?)

Soon be weekend - lots of time to play

Jim

[TheChairGuy]

Rick,

You actually want to put the Plast-i-Clay all over the inside (in all places where it won't interfere with moving parts or on top of any electrical areas).  All sides, especially corners, should be stuffed solid with the Plast-iClay (or similar modeling clay from other makers).

The flimsy pressboard bottom is near worthless...and not really needed except to hold the (near worthless) feet on the frame on that deck, primarily.  The inside is where the clay goes...take that deck up to 30 lbs or so that way and it'll improve.

You can verify the wear on the cartridge 'needle' (called styli) with a good magnifying glass....or listen.  If something sounds wrong with your system (use your James Taylor albums as you are familiar with them), then it may well be a overly worn stylus.  There are good replacements for less than $130.......so don't sweat it.  $100 will still buy you a few excellent cartridges today 

Your platter is likely cast aluminum (most of that era were) and not a particularly strong feature of the unit because of it...but that is for a later date to improve after you set your rig up and pound that clay inside 

Go back to www.cartridgedb.com and look for the AT23...I'm pretty sure I saw it there and it had lots of information on it.

Isolation, in the form of a big, thick hunk of wood is really helpful...as I found not long ago: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42423.0

Ciao, John

[soewhatman]

Thanks John.  I found the at23 on that database.  Most of the information was beyond me at this time, but still useful.  Mine is actually labeled at23a, but the picture looked right so I am guessing the differences are only minor. 

I've got a clear weekend ahead of me so I think I'll make this player my project for the next couple of days.  I have some 2" thick mahogany left over from a table I built, just enough to either:

a.  re-make the bottom panel of the player
b.  make a nice heavy board to set the player on, in which case I'd still need to re-make the bottom panel from something else

I'm more inclined to re-make the bottom panel with the mahogany, and I've also got some leftover veneer scraps I can use to really pretty this player up if I go that route, but from a purely audio perspective what do you guys think would be the better option of the two? 

Thanks much.

Rick.

[TheChairGuy]

Use the 2" board for the bottom of your player to help stiffen things up (but don't forget to pound the Plast-i-Clay on the insides, too) and if you have an IKEA near you, got buy 2-4 of these cutting boards, stack them on top of one another and place your TT on them.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00043245
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40082918

You can buy one, but several together will offer up better isolation as the wood acts as a very nice dampening agent.  Birch, as these are, are used in many high end/very expensive speakers for the same reasons 

You'll have (likely) great isolation for $100.00 and you'll be milking the TT and cartridge for what it's worth 

[soewhatman]

Hmm.  There is an Ikea nearby, so that isn't a problem.  I'll just have to keep them away from the wife.  Currently the base has some spring loaded feet, I assume to help isolate the unit.  Should I re-use these, or are spikes more appropriate for this?

Thanks.

Rick.

[TheChairGuy]

Hmm.  There is an Ikea nearby, so that isn't a problem.  I'll just have to keep them away from the wife.  Currently the base has some spring loaded feet, I assume to help isolate the unit.  Should I re-use these, or are spikes more appropriate for this?

Thanks.

Rick.

Pointy feet (spikes if you will) worked best for me, at least. They beat the heck outta' the squishy puds I used prior to that (and thought it was providing good isolation) 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Set-of-8-Sound-isolation-audio-cones-floor-spikes_W0QQitemZ170158089778QQihZ007QQcategoryZ14993QQcmdZViewItem

Bought mine here....or you can get them at Parts Express if you want only 4.

John

[soewhatman]

I had a chance to get a bit done with the player this weekend, specifically:

1.  Cleaned/lubed the interior mechanics
2.  Crammed 5 lbs of non-hardening clay (plasticlay, by another name) inside anyplace I could find room
3.  Re-made the bottom from a 2" thick solid mahogany block.  I also re-veneered the side panels with some leftover mahogany scraps.  The player looks pretty nice now for being 30 years old.

Well, HOLY COW what a difference so far.  Tightened up the bass by leaps and bounds.  I think the bass was vibrating the player and feeding back, causing mucho distortion.  Also sounds much more tonally consistent, i.e. I can't detect any warblies in voices I recognize the sound of.  I am very impressed so far, and I'm only 1/2 done.  Stereo imaging is also considerably better.  This is even with the player currently sitting on a relatively flimsy folding table for the time being.

Visited IKEA looking for the cutting board mentioned previously, and happened across a 2'x6'X1.5" solid oak butcher block counter top piece in the scratch/dent section for a whopping $10.  I had a hard choice to make at checkout....an itty bitty piece of solid wood for $25 or a huge piece for $10.  I left the cutting board behind.  I buy hardwood for projects all the time.  I know $10 for that much oak is beyond a bargain.  I am planning on making a nice beefy shelf unit to set the record player/pre-amp/amp on with the oak, and I'll still have plenty left to make an additional blank or two to set beneath the record player. 

At least to my amateur ears, the cartridge/stylus sounds fine so far, so I think I'll leave it be for now.

John, you hinted that the milled aluminum platter is not the best. Do you have any recomendations to improve/upgrade this?  Also, the rubber mat is not fixed in any way to the platter.  Does this allow enough slippage to be concerned with?

Thanks for steering me in the right direction guys.  So far I'm really enjoying this excursion into the modern history of music.    

Rick.

[TheChairGuy]

Rick,

Way to go on getting some good traction on quality sonics from the Hitachi If your 'tachi is anything like most other decks, you should be able to put a total of 8 or more lbs in the innards before you've exhausted space.

'Undercoat' helps a bunch with Direct Drive decks...my fave is this, Dupli-Color UC103 because it's cheap, it works and it dries fast, unlike others on the market that make you wait 24 + hours.  Spray it on the underside of the aluminum platter to deaden it.
http://www.duplicolor.com/products/undercoating.html

The Isoplatmat is a constrained layer damping undermat that will help turn needless/harmful plater vibrations into heat.  I've not heard it, others heap prise on it (like member lcrim), but it makes sense that it would help. Buy the basic $99 version....skip the cork/Isoplatmat....and then you can use a good top mat dependent on taste. Use your rubber mat for now...but it is a liability overall you'll find as you escalate further sonically.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1197685267

The birch chopping blocks at IKEA seem great...make sure you buy two or more and stack them.  I found around 3 any hard wrap on them was dissipated into nearly nothing.  4 was wonderful overkill and likely better still. Good isolation like that is worth far more than $100 more in any 'better' cartridge.

You do at least 2 of the above and you'll find another serious leap in performance 

If you can find the tonearm bearings underneath (tuff sometimes - they tend to be well hidden), go buy yourself some Tufoil for under $20, squirt it in / on the bearing and you'll have a dramatically better tonearm at your command.

In no particular order - go get a vacuum cleaning machine and some chemicals. Spotless records are fantastically important to enjoying your vinyl experience 

Keep us abreast of your progress - there is lotsa' great tunes from that 100 year old technology still. No digital format surpasses it in overall musicality...that is, most like music as it's actually heard.  I'm not that nostaligic, I'd love to plop in a silver disc and enjoy it with remote, but the music is just more realistic with vinyl 

Doing all of the above won't set you back but $400 or so, not chump change for sure, but any thoughts of digital superiority largely vanish once you do.

John

[soewhatman]

I apologize for bringing back an old thread here, but I figure John deserved an update after all the good advice.

Let me summarize by stating that I am really enjoying listening to records.  In particular, I love listening to all sorts of music that I would never have listened to otherwise.  I think this old record player was the best money spent in my audio system to day, and in some irony it's the cheapest component by far.  I sure appreciate the help I've received here in getting this thing set straight.

I've followed most of the suggestions here so far with the exception of a new mat for the platter, and they have payed off in a huge way.  I also put together a Hagtech Ripper to use as a phono section, and it's a top-notch unit.  I am finding records to be very listenable, and in all honesty my digital music has been seeing less and less use.

Now that I've been tinkering with the player and records for a while I have a few more questions though.

1.  I am considering purchasing either a replacement stylus for the at23a integrated, or a new headshell/stylus combo.  I have no idea what condition the current stylus is in.  I do know I like the way it sounds, but as these things go I'm curious to have something to compare it to, whether that be a new stylus on the at23a or a new headshell/stylus.  Stereoneedles sells the stylus I would need for $130.  Given the age of the headshell, should I go ahead and get a new stylus for it or am I better off spending around the same money for a modestly priced headshell/stylus of new manufacture?  Really, what I'm asking is does the cartridge "go bad" with age?

2.  I think the player is running a tad fast.  I am assuming you want to adjust the speed control until the machine marks on the edge of the platter show up as a stationary square or dot under the strobe light, for your given AC frequency and record speed.  Assuming this is so, I can't get mine dialed down quite far enough.  There is a rotary dial to adjust speed, and inside there is a printed circuit board.  At present I am considering if I should replace all the electrolytic capacitors on the board, given that the unit is 30 years old.  There are only 8 or 10 on it.  Could aged capacitors be causing the motor to run too fast, or should I look elsewhere?

I know this is the right place for some expert advice. 

Rick.

[Jampot]

I apologize for bringing back an old thread here

No need to apologise - EVERYBODY loves a success story

Not sure about your Hitachi, but the Technics DD I have has additional speed trim by a screw head (under the platter I think), It is a coarser rate of adjustment but lets the user get the range required on the regular pots...

Jim

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Rick -

Great to hear it's working out for you    Like so many, even with an inexpensive player, if you mechanically isolate the table well, use a reasonably good phono pre-amp and cartridge....your digital rig sounds very cheesy in comparison and begins gathering more dust.

Redbook is an always will be a format of mostly convenience over sound quality...it's a 2-and-half-dimension format trying to portray a 3d event.  Best to spend as little as possible on it and use for convenience only.

Unfortunately, cartridges do wear over time...mostly their rubber damping mechanism dries out.  Even is unused, oxygen does a doozy on this part.

There are precious few choices of new reasonably priced cartridges today.  If you want to stay in the AT family, the AT440mla is a good one at $130 or so (same as your replacement stylus).  Or, you can just replace your sylus and hope for the best internally for another few years (an integrated headshell is awfully nice feature to eliminate mechanical resonance)

John

[Russtafarian]

I'm surprised no one has recommended a Shure M97XE as a replacement cartridge, priced at around $60 to $70 at amazon.com.  Nice sounding cartidge for the money that will track just about any record you throw at it.  Perfect for the garage sale vinyl that a lot of us listen to.

Russ

[TheChairGuy]

I'm surprised no one has recommended a Shure M97XE as a replacement cartridge, priced at around $60 to $70 at amazon.com.  Nice sounding cartidge for the money that will track just about any record you throw at it.  Perfect for the garage sale vinyl that a lot of us listen to.

Russ

I often forget that one, Russ...my experience with Shure's has not been too pleasant so I tend to forget about them. 

For about that price point, I'd buy LPGear's AT95SA (400 mH) model instead (the Shibata stylus may be an advance over even AT's microridge tip).....it may even sound better than the pricier  AT440MLa due to the lower inductance (more extended/transparent treble response) for less money. 

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LG&Category_Code=LPGCART

The Shure has ultra-high inductance levels (like 800mH I think by memory) - guaranteeing a steep falloff in treble response in the hearing range and the operating range of records.

I'd buy an old Stanton 500 Mk. II (400mH) for half that before I'd buy the Shure, too.

John