[mgalusha]

Jack,

You might check the outlet and see if only one half is switched. Many switched outlet's in homes are only switched on one side. If this is the case, you can simply replace the outlet with a normal one, leaving the switched feed disconnected and capped of course.

Mike

[Psychicanimal]

Hey Psychoanimal,

For someone who professes to be so open minded, you sure seem to get a great deal of joy from taking shots at someone whose gear you have never heard.  I assume you never heard AVA gear because if you did you would probably own it.

I have personally met Van Alstine (and his wife) and listened to his equipment at the November 2001 Chicago Audio Society meeting.  I have never posted (nor implied) anything derogatory about VA's equipment.  Quite the contrary, I do like his gear.  Perhaps I  do have something better*...


*Hint: Ever heard of Nelson Pass?

[jackman]

Yes, in fact I have communicated with Nelson Pass over email several times when I was thinking about building one of his DIY designs.  He makes some excellent gear that I really like.  I could never own a class A amp, however because they run too hot.  Great design and really good sounding.  I was only commenting on AVA because most people who take shots at Frank and his beliefs have never listened to his gear.  If you have a Pass amp, you have one of the best.

J

[Psychicanimal]

The problem w/ VA is that he blends his beliefs with his gear and that affects their ultimate performance.  It was sooo pathetic watching him hold lamp cord and 99 cent Walgreens interconnects in his hands!  I am switching all the ICs in my main system to Midnight Silver Edition by Ridge Street Audio (some say they're better than Valhalla's--definitely better than Pure Note Epsilon's).  It is cool VA can demo his DAC with an old Harman Kardon CDP as transport and claim it does not make a difference, but I own a McCormack SST-1 and a CEC built Parasound belt drive transport--both top loaders.  I also own a Forté 4 (50W class A) amp for my Modwright Swans M1 and two Marantz Ma-5 monoblocks run in class B mode for my subs (120W each).  My power delivery/noise control rig is a story on to itself--starting with a 30 ampere, 220V dedicated line, two massive 220V/110V isolation transformers and two 48 lb Clear Image T4 quad isolation transformer/filter arrays (they have copper plated chassis and screws).  Some of us know better...  

[John Casler]

Hi,

Per the advice of Neil, his friend Neil, Chris (the dAck guy), some other audiogeek (not as geeky as me!) friends, I moved my system to the long wall.   The purpose of the move was to allow me to place my speaker further apart and closer to the listening position.  The results were far better than anything I could have imagined.  Soundstage was wider than ever (a problem with my old setup), still pretty deep, imaging was greatly improved and bass .

Hey J-man....Alright!!!!

I am a big proponent of setting up your system on the long wall anytime your room will allow it.

The effect it has on the soundstage is "as you said", better than almost any upgrade you can do.

As far as your electrical problem, it is interesting to see the "here's the problem", posts when it does seem like it should work "as is".

The one thing that I do agree with most of the posters about is, that "g-e-n-e-r-a-l-l-y" most systems can benefit from a balanced transformer and noise isolator like the ones you mentioned from BPT.

I just picked up the line myself since Shunyata is so backlogged and I don't fit their dealer profile. (too much the hobbyist not enough dealer)

I wouldn't guarantee that one of these would "solve" your current (excuse the pun ) problem, but no matter how good someones equipment is, we all have varying degrees of electrical quality, which also varies during the day and night.

During the day when all the offices have their lights, computers, copy machines, and industry has its big motors and such running the quality of power is much different than at 7:00PM at night and some of that drain and interferance is off.

But the improvement these devices can make is directly dependent on the quality of electrical service you have at any given moment, and if it is clean and flowing strong you may not notice much difference at all.

But in any event, I think you current (sorry again ) path is the right one.

Get some wire, and a male and female plug  and make your own PC, and see if going back to your origninal recepticle will solve the problem.

Then when you're feeling brave and the wife is in a good mood, think BPT. (or other, but Chris's prices and quality are very right).

In fact, Chris is probably the kinda guy you would like to talk to.  His number is on the BPT site and he has a forum on HD still.

As far as room treatment for "between" the speakers, I am not a fan of diffusers, unless they are huge and high quality.

For aesthetics, maybe the wife would go for a nice "wall hanging".  

Or for cheap, pick up 4 sheets of 24x48x3 acoustic foam and just pin it to the wall for the serious sessions and take it down when not in use.

If you use the wall hanging (or even a decorative blanket) see if you can hang it a couple inches out from the wall.  This makes it more effective in that it absorbs the sound hitting it from the front, then if some sound energy does make it through, it is absorbed also as it reflects back into the device.

Have fun, it sounds like the new room set up has given added sonic perspective

Oh, and if you have a coffee table betwen you and the speakers, see my post on that too.

[DVV]

Hi DVV,

I don't doubt power conditioning is important.  Maybe I can check out some BPT products when I visit Roop's place in NYC.  He's a dealer for BPT and I would really like to get some stuff from someone like Roop who I trust completely.  In this case, there was no popping before I made the switch (new outlet).  This outlet has lots of stuff on it and it's doing strange things to my stuff.  Sound is still very good, but that popping is irritating.

I appreciate the feedback and got a real chuckle out of your beer comment.  My wife would also agree!

Jack

Or consider DeZorel. Look back in the log elsewhere here, Francisco (our very own Psychic Beastie ) had a few things to say about it. I still swear by it, older model and all.

But what you buy is of secondary importance - the primary thing is that you start thinking along those lines, a comprehensive solution to a problem.

As for the beer, well, you know the old saying - it takes one to recognize one.

Cheers,
DVV

[Curt]

Jackman,

The switched outlet means there is a break (the switch) in the hot side and possibly a pigtail (often needed to make these hook-ups) in the wiring.

It sounds like there might be a "weak" connection in the switch circuit. I mean a connection that is not gas tight and has some resistance that the power has to jump over at turn on.

The places to look... first the switch--did the electrician simply strip and push the wires in the stupid quick connect holes or did he wrap the wire around the screw connections and tighten the screws good? The screw connections are superior and make a gas tight connection (the receptical should use the screw connections too)... second the wiring from the in-wall receptical to the switch--connections and pigtails use wirenuts, some are good some are not. I would check every wirenut to be sure it was tight and making a gas tight connection. Look in the wall receptical, the ceiling light electrical box (where the switch wiring would normally pass through), and the switch's electrical box.

This is the first thing I would do, simply checking to be sure nothing is loose and all the AC connections are gass tight. It's free and it might be the problem. I've seen a lot of faulty AC wiring in the past and it's easy to check.

[jackman]

Curt, John and DVV,

Thanks for the reply.  Your suggestions are all very good and I hope to get to most of them after I correct this popping.  Last night, when I turned off everything else on the circuit, everything sounded good and there was no popping.  One thing for certain, the long wall setup is here to stay.

The problem w/ VA is that he blends his beliefs with his gear and that affects their ultimate performance. It was sooo pathetic watching him hold lamp cord and 99 cent Walgreens interconnects in his hands! I am switching all the ICs in my main system to Midnight Silver Edition by Ridge Street Audio (some say they're better than Valhalla's--definitely better than Pure Note Epsilon's). It is cool VA can demo his DAC with an old Harman Kardon CDP as transport and claim it does not make a difference, but I own a McCormack SST-1 and a CEC built Parasound belt drive transport--both top loaders. I also own a Forté 4 (50W class A) amp for my Modwright Swans M1 and two Marantz Ma-5 monoblocks run in class B mode for my subs (120W each). My power delivery/noise control rig is a story on to itself--starting with a 30 ampere, 220V dedicated line, two massive 220V/110V isolation transformers and two 48 lb Clear Image T4 quad isolation transformer/filter arrays (they have copper plated chassis and screws). Some of us know better...

Hey Psychicaniman,

What to know what's pathetic?  A guy who seems to care more about the snake oil BS that is in his gear than the sound.  I'm not a ribbon guy, but I'd put my Ellis/AVA system (wimpy power cables and all) up against your Swan/Forte 4 any day with all the filter arrays on the planet.   You seem to have a real agenda and it's not helping people understand audio or correct their problems.  If you have a bone to pick with any manufacturers, I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it on my thread.

J

[Psychicanimal]

 As far as room treatment for "between" the speakers, I am not a fan of diffusers, unless they are huge and high quality....

I can definitely see your point.  In my present setup I have a pretty big Guatemalan wool blanket  plus two other blanket remnants in between my speakers.  This other room I am setting up is 10 x 10 1/2 and I am going for a diagonal setup.  I have started to wonder how big my DIY two dimensional diffusers will need to be.

Jackman,

The switched outlet means there is a break (the switch) in the hot side and possibly a pigtail (often needed to make these hook-ups) in the wiring.

It sounds like there might be a "weak" connection in the switch circuit. I mean a connection that is not gas tight and has some resistance that the power has to jump over at turn on.

The places to look... first the switch--did the electrician simply strip and push the wires in the stupid quick connect holes or did he wrap the wire around the sc ...

This is the most sensible explanation I've seen...an arc blowing accross an air gap.

Hey Psychicaniman,

What to know what's pathetic? A guy who seems to care more about the snake oil BS that is in his gear than the sound. I'm not a ribbon guy, but I'd put my Ellis/AVA system (wimpy power cables and all) up against your Swan/Forte 4 any day with all the filter arrays on the planet. You seem to have a real agenda and it's not helping people understand audio or correct their problems. If you have a bone to pick with any manufacturers, I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it on my thread.

J ...

I am sorry you have reading comprehension problems.  There are these books that help you take the ASVAB and they go through reading comprehension exercises.  This is not derogatory in nature, but you really need to work on those skills.  Example:

Quote:

Van Alstine does not believe in noise filtration--says that his gear is good enough. The same goes for (audio grade) power cords, interconnects & speaker wire. It's quite a limited perspective, I'd say...  


Hey Psychoanimal,

For someone who professes to be so open minded, you sure seem to get a great deal of joy from taking shots at someone whose gear you have never heard. I assume you never heard AVA gear because if you did you would probably own it.

****************

See?  There's more, but I'll leave it there.  What that meant was telling Dejan not to waste his time with someone who swallowed VA's rap.  No other meaning.  That does not mean I am picking a bone in "your" thread.  As for my system, it does what I want it to do.  I decided to assemble a system with a *specific goal* in mind, something that I rarely see:  

"A near field system capable of successfully playing any recording of any musical genre regardless of recording quality."  


With that as a goal, every step I take is in that direction--and that's my agenda.  I helped pay for college working at a couple audio/video stores so I have the perspective of having a system work for the customer.  There's different types of sounds, system possiblities and musical tastes (not to mention budget), so there's many ways things can be achieved-- if you know what you want.

[MaxCast]

Knock it off, both of you.  This is a problem solving thread, not a AVA  

[DVV]

Knock it off, both of you.  This is a problem solving thread, not a AVA  

Mad Max with a leg in the Cast () said it - let's not argue about concepts, let's make some new ones if we can.

Isn't it more useful, not to say productive, if we try to find a working solution for Jack's problem which will go further than adding more wiring, or a power strip, or some such obvious solution?

Francisco started off by consulting with me, tried it, found it works and has since then done many an experiment of his own. I am hardly surprised he has built up a concept of his own - that was what I wanted him to do, but in his own way and his own time. That Francisco is, well, hot blooded, I'm sure you've all noticed; in all honesty, I'm no better, I just learnt to control it better.

Jack, I believe THIS is the way you should head. The best I or anyone else can do is offer some advice, much like road signs, but how you get there is your business, you have to do it yourself. Two things are working ion your favor - you have our collective experiences here to draw at least some inspiration from, and you can always ask and be properly answered. We may agree (rarely) or disagree (frequently), but by and large this is a good group of enthusiasts, way better than most on the net. Use that, Jack, that's why this group exists.

So, relax one and all, and let's do some thinking instead of shouting.

Cheers,
DVV

[avahifi]

I suspect that if you dissected the AC power switch on that circuit you would find contacts that looked like the points for a 48 Ford ignition system with 100000 miles on them.

Likely, what is happening is that the AC switch is making a very poor contact and that the turn on surge from the power amp is pulling an arc across those switch contacts, which can propagate a very nasty thump back into the system and speakers.

The less load you have on the line, the less likely the switch is to arc.

The Fet Valve amplifiers have 80 amp surge rating switches, protected by a high quality line transient absorber ahead of the switch and a suppression capacitor across the switch, so the amp power switch will not cause a thump in and of itself.  If however, the AC wall switch is marginal, then the surge the amp demands at turn on can cause the arc to occur there, and since the amp is already on by the time the transients gets back to the amp, there is no more protection built in against that.

The solution of course is use an unswitched AC outlet (preferably a separate one for the amp) for your audio equipment.

Frank Van Alstine

[Tonto Yoder]

Yee haw--a specific answer

[jackman]

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:12 pm    Post subject: Worn out power switch?  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I suspect that if you dissected the AC power switch on that circuit you would find contacts that looked like the points for a 48 Ford ignition system with 100000 miles on them.

Likely, what is happening is that the AC switch is making a very poor contact and that the turn on surge from the power amp is pulling an arc across those switch contacts, which can propagate a very nasty thump back into the system and speakers.

The less load you have on the line, the less likely the switch is to arc.

The Fet Valve amplifiers have 80 amp surge rating switches, protected by a high quality line transient absorber ahead of the switch and a suppression capacitor across the switch, so the amp power switch will not cause a thump in and of itself. If however, the AC wall switch is marginal, then the surge the amp demands at turn on can cause the arc to occur there, and since the amp is already on by the time the transients gets back to the amp, there is no more protection built in against that.

The solution of course is use an unswitched AC outlet (preferably a separate one for the amp) for your audio equipment.

Frank Van Alstine

 
Thanks Frank.  This is the type of pragmatic advice that separates you from the snake-oil croud.  I tried the amp on an unswitched (or non-switch) outlet and it's fine.  No thump.  

I always believe in a simple approach to these matters.  This one didn't cost anything either!

Jman

[Psychicanimal]

I wonder how many people here have actually seen snake oil.  I have.  My friend who introduced me to Wilfredo Rivera was an Olympic wrestler and always had that stuff around.  He had several kind and his favorite was from Peru--a really bright yellow oil and extremely expensive ($250 for a little jar?).  He said it was fantastic for joint pains and that timbaleros were very fond of that particular type, as it quicly penetrated and loosened their wrists.  From what I understand, the oil is "milked" from live snakes by wrapping a copper/tin wire around the snake and forcing the snake to free itself.  In the process, the oil is exuded.  Seems the oil helps the snake in being limber.

[DVV]

I wonder how many people here have actually seen snake oil.  I have.  My friend who introduced me to Wilfredo Rivera was an Olympic wrestler and always had that stuff around.  He had several kind and his favorite was from Peru--a really bright yellow oil and extremely expensive ($250 for a little jar?).  He said it was fantastic for joint pains and that timbaleros were very fond of that particular type, as it quicly penetrated and loosened their wrists.  From what I understand, the oil is "milked" from live ...

I prefer the "Vergina"  - that's a brand of Greek virgin olive oil (maybe my mentioning virgins will get Marbles into this discussion ).

But while I didn't know what Franncisco just mentioned, I can't say I'm surprised. My wife has a PhD in pharmacology, is a senior professor, etc, etc, etc, but she's the best in her field for many, many hundreds of miles around. Anyway, she says quite a lot of science today goes on scientifically explaining what the ancient civilizations have used for thousands of years.

Over here, it's the herbs. The things people can help you with using herbs only, often in form of a herbal tea, sometimes boggles the imagination.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

I learned about the snake pits when I was in high school.  Our school bus picked up a guy (Victor) who lived in a traditional black village and there was this old man who always walked down the countryside with a stick and looking at the ground.  One day I asked Victor what was that man doing and he explained me that he captured snakes to extract the oil and that he kept them in cages.   He also said that people who don't know kill the snakes for their oil, whereas people who know wrap wire around the snakes and force them to free themselves while at the same time collecting the exuded oil.

My friend that uses snake oil is a world class wrestler with a BS in Phys Ed from Syracuse University--the kind of guy that had cauliflower ears by age 22.  He has tried just about everything that's available for managing pain and prefers expensive Peruvian snake oil for his joints.

There is a lesson to be learned here...

[DVV]

... There is a lesson to be learned here ...

Yeah - Che lives! :Razz:

Eviva Peru!

Seriously though, the ancient civilizations did know much more than we like to admit.

Cheers,
DVV

[audiojerry]

I kind of like the idea of wrapping wire around a virgin, and having her exude oils trying to wriggle out of the wire.