[Freo-1]

I don't think 2bigears meant to specifically challenge Lamm to justify their pricing. The way I read it, he picked Lamm as an example of what he finds puzzling in the valuation of high end products in general.

He wants to know why prices are in the stratosphere. He wants to know why we are willing to pay these prices. He isn't telling anyone how to spend their money. He didn't call anyone an idiot. He isn't jealous of people who can pay these prices (are you?) and he doesn't want to see anyone starve in a Mercedes taxicab.

The problem with these threads lies with the people who can't or don't read and interpret only what is written. And taking snippets out of context for the purpose of inversion, diversion or derision is especially corruptive. Courtesy is an attitude not a set of phrases or slogans.

I think that captures the essence of the issue. It's impossible to figure out why people are willing to pay such large sums for these products.

It is somewhat relative. Most of my non-audio nut friends at work who have been to my abode love the equipment, but think the money I spent is way too much (as compared to a Best Buy home theater in a box type of thing). They all readily hear and enjoy the difference, but, to most of them, they have better things to spend money on (and that is certainly fair enough).

My audio nut buddies also love the setup, but again, many of them simply do not have the scratch to pony up. By audiophile standards, while I have a fair amount invested, it is not anywhere near the monies of the ultra high end stuff.

The real problem becomes one of diminishing return.  How much more does one pay to get that extra bit of resolution? That is truly impossible to measure, and is up to each person to sort out for themselves.

One could argue that when one starts spending ultra dollars, it would be wise to hire a consultant, and set up the audio room to optimize  the audio reproduction. I would be willing to wager that one could achieve better sound with less expensive equipment if this was practiced. 

[DARTH AUDIO]

BTW, I was being facetious!! But I will make it to his room to see what all the fuss is about.

[Daygloworange]

You call another member a pri*%k

Correction. He said "confrontational prick".

Cheers 

[Freo-1]

You call another member a pri*%k

Correction. He said "confrontational prick".

Cheers 

Careful, gang. If we get too personal, the thought police will come and calibrate everyone

Sometimes, the best one can expect is to "agree to disagree"

[markC]

I was recently at a customers home doing some unrelated repair work in his loft home theatre room. He is quite wealthy, having sold a high tech business for millions. He's a real nice, down to earth guy. We talked about audio and he said that since being a kid in college, he's always wanted high end B&W speaks and big-ass amps to drive them. So much so that he used to carry around the glossy brochures in his briefcase.
Well, now that he can afford them, he has them. 7 matching B&W's with the mains being the 800's.
His amps to drive the mains are Halcro DM-88's. He later told me that he has $250k invested in his system. I don't think he's showing off or trying to one up anyone, just finally got what he has been craving all these years.
Are the manufacturers of this equipment gouging? Maybe. But, everybody won and at least his cash didn't go to the casinos or up his nose.

[Freo-1]

I was recently at a customers home doing some unrelated repair work in his loft home theatre room. He is quite wealthy, having sold a high tech business for millions. He's a real nice, down to earth guy. We talked about audio and he said that since being a kid in college, he's always wanted high end B&W speaks and big-ass amps to drive them. So much so that he used to carry around the glossy brochures in his briefcase.
Well, now that he can afford them, he has them. 7 matching B&W's with the mains being the 800's.
His amps to drive the mains are Halcro DM-88's. He later told me that he has $250k invested in his system. I don't think he's showing off or trying to one up anyone, just finally got what he has been craving all these years.
Are the manufacturers of this equipment gouging? Maybe. But, everybody won and at least his cash didn't go to the casinos or up his nose.

Good post, Mark. Sounds like a happy ending for all concerned.

[2bigears]

this idea started the other morning before my 1st cup of joe.i was checkin' the Gon and saw a pair of little weeee amps with a new sticker price of 30k.these things really are not eye candy , and i was struck with a silly little thought.---Who the heck would pay 30,000.00 dollars for those???? i always liked VAC gear and judge hi gear by the shape,size and overall appearance of that brand.when you buy a 20,000.00 dollar amp from them,i really don't think you can do better.everyone has their own little quirks,that's mine.those little Lamm amps may sound big,they just don't do it for me,seem overpriced by about 20 grand.just by lookin' at them,i have come to this.how does this happen.i don't know.just look at a piece of VAC gear and that may be part of the reason.now,let's all have fun.... P.S. if this don't make sense,maybe it's not suppose to.the only person that counts when you turn your music on is you and your buds.

[Daygloworange]

For some answers to questions of why a pair of amps might cost as much as they do, here is the designer of some high end amps going into detail of all the nuts and bolts of why his amps are at a price point similar to the Lamm's.

Read the post by gld, (aka) Gary Dodd about what went into his latest creations:

There are also detailed pics under the hood of the amps in the thread as well.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40600.10

Cheers

[Freo-1]

For some answers to questions of why a pair of amps might cost as much as they do, here is the designer of some high end amps going into detail of all the nuts and bolts of why his amps are at a price point similar to the Lamm's.

Read the post by gld, (aka) Gary Dodd about what went into his latest creations:

There are also detailed pics under the hood of the amps in the thread as well.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40600.10

Cheers

Thanks, that was informative.

He used a similar topology to what I have in the restored/modified Harmon Kardon Citation II. Having dabbled in restoration and home made projects myself, the cost to obtain some of these parts are very dear, indeed.

Cheers

[BrianM]

Didn't find any answers as to why those monos would/should cost $50k, but they certainly LOOK like how a $50k amp would look, if a $50k amp could cost $50k.  (That was supposed to be a play on the woodchuck thing.)

[Daygloworange]

Brian,

 The MSRP would be in the 50k range. They are only available direct at the moment and are in the price range of the Lamm's.

Cheers

[BrianM]

Brian,

 The MSRP would be in the 50k range. They are only available direct at the moment and are in the price range of the Lamm's.

Well, that's a relief.

I also couldn't help noticing that the praise basically amounted to "DAMN, these sumbitches can play loud! For a tube amp!"  Yeah I know, I'm sure the realism is stellar, but so it is for many far less expensive amps. Isn't it??

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from knocking what I haven't heard.  But that is the ultimate expression of impress your friends & neighbors, methinks.

[BrianM]

Well, lemme back that up a little.  I'm sure it's a labor of love for the engineer in question first and foremost. Apologies.. 

[Freo-1]

The problem is a lot of these ultra high end components are made by guys more or less "out of their garage", so there are all of the obvious issues associated with that. Their unit costs to obtain parts is quite high compared to a large company like Sony, Harmon Kardon, etc. They have very limited resources to produce their wares, and at the end of the day, they got to make a living too. So, the mark up covers their costs, plus what they feel they are entitled to as profit.

Unless the large manufactures decide to compete in this market, the situation is not likely to change.

[Daygloworange]

It's what they (over the pond) refer to as a "bespoke" amp.

I also couldn't help noticing that the praise basically amounted to "DAMN, these sumbitches can play loud! For a tube amp!"  Yeah I know, I'm sure the realism is stellar, but so it is for many far less expensive amps. Isn't it??

It's an overkill amp yeah. All about excess.   But it's not about quantity, it's about the quality of sound. 

The specs are unique for a tube amp. 110 watts in pure Class A at less than 2% THD with almost 1000 joules of capacitor banks. Custom spec handmade transformers, custom amp chokes....

This ain't your mama's grocery getter amp. 

BTW, it'll be at RMAF.

As they say, hearin' is believin' ! 

Cheers

[BrianM]

It's an overkill amp yeah. All about excess.   But it's not about quantity, it's about the quality of sound. 

The specs are unique for a tube amp. 110 watts in pure Class A at less than 2% THD with almost 1000 joules of capacitor banks. Custom spec handmade transformers, custom amp chokes....

Well, at least you admit it's overkill.  (I don't know what variety of amps this person offers, but would assume this one would would be no better *sounding* -- quality-wise -- than a similar design that made far fewer demands on the power grid.)  Maybe there's something in this gentleman's business model that dictates, unless I sell a few $30k amps I'm out selling insurance instead...I guess I'm missing why so much power is necessary, or even usable.  So he's over-engineered an amp, right?  The guy admitted to playing it basically as loud as his ears could take and he was only at a little over a third total output. I mean, great!  Headroom!  I know, pretty much all amps (like cars) are essentially overpowered these days, and I'm sure this was a "just because I can" kind of amp.

As they say, hearin' is believin' ! 

Oh, I believe.  And more power to him (he'll need it).

[macrojack]

I'm back. I always go get something to eat during commercials.

Seems like there are more and more lately what with RMAF coming up and all.

[Daygloworange]

I'm back. I always go get something to eat during commercials.

Dude, tell me about it!   

It's those constant Zu commercials that make me gag the most!

Cheers

[Freo-1]

I'm back. I always go get something to eat during commercials.

Dude, tell me about it!   

It's those constant Zu commercials that make me gag the most!

Cheers

Hoo-Boy!  Here we go again. 

When one lives on the lunatic fringe of audio (as we all do), this is what happens. All these little boutique outfits are competing for the same dollars, with all their high business costs. They make the legacy cost  problems of GM trying to sell cars seem small by comparison.

At least back in he day, the quality gear was made by outfits like Fisher, Harmon Kardon,  Klipsch,  etc. While they were expensive by the standards of the day, they were not outrageous like today's hi end.

Paul Klipsch  was right: "What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier" 

[Double Ugly]

I'm back. I always go get something to eat during commercials.

Dude, tell me about it!   

It's those constant Zu commercials that make me gag the most!

Cheers

Hoo-Boy!  Here we go again. 

No, we aren't.

DGO, please let it go.  Since the initial falling-out, macrojack hasn't attacked you, said your breath smells bad or even thought about you as far as we know.

Again, please...let it go.

Thanks.