[acresm22]

Maybe a more pertinent question is whether or not $30k amps (and $20k cables, and $70k speakers) are good for the future of high-end audio. Here are some comments by Dick Olsher back in 2003:

"Common sense and even a modicum of skepticism would suggest that most $20K power amplifiers are over priced given their parts count and typical industry markups. And how would you explain the insanity of $10,000 speaker cables to your non-audio friends when most audiophiles and music lovers make do with complete systems costing under $10K. It's not always a question of greed. One of the few manufacturers unafraid to speak up is VMPS Audio's Brian Cheney. He specifically mentions Wilson Audio's founder, Dave Wilson as someone who discovered the impact of a huge price tag in establishing product credibility and mystique. Price a product head-and-shoulders above the competition and it attracts attention. It generates a buzz because such a product is perceived to be superior in the same way that a Mercedes passenger car outranks a Chevy in the US market. Although in the German domestic market, Mercedes is no more distinguished than Chevy; most of the taxicabs and trucks there are in fact built by Mercedes.

As a consequence, I believe that ultra high-end audio is a dying business currently supported by affluent, brain cramped, baby boomers who are obsessed with the notion of purchasing nothing but the best, where the best is often nothing more than a mirage of hype and misinformation. To survive, high-end audio needs to attract the 30s crowd, and in the process re-discover the appeal of components with the dual virtues of musical integrity and value for the dollar. In other words, re-vitalize the business by emulating these principles established long ago by the late David Hafler and the Dynaco Corporation."

Hey Marbles, his comments in that last paragraph about buyers of uber-expensive gear sounds a little, er, judgemental 

All in good fun. I think you're cool... 

[Daygloworange]

Nobody's starving at Wilson or Lamm.

Should they be? Are you suggesting that they should be starving in order to gain your respect?

Any particular reason you glanced over my question to you macrojack?

And in many cases, the dealer doesn't have anything invested. He just places the order and waits for the gear to arrive.

       I can only conclude that you have never been in business from a comment like that. Set up a storefront, hire a few salesman, and then come back in a year or two, and tell us your thoughts then....

Cheers

[sts9fan]

Everyone keeps saying that hifi is dying.  Where is the market analysis of this?  What is causing people to say these things?  Also imo Brian Cheney called out Wilson to get publicity.  Its an old well known tactic.  

[BrianM]

Although in the German domestic market, Mercedes is no more distinguished than Chevy

Uhh..false.

[sts9fan]

yeah thats not true.  The models that are used as cabs are barebones that we cannot get here in the US.  They just look like them.  Ever sit in one?  Not luxury.  They just use domestics for domestic job.  Same here. 

[macrojack]

Ridiculous pricing of audio gear isn't strictly a domestic issue either. I think Goldmund may have shown us the way on that topic.

[TheChairGuy]

Although in the German domestic market, Mercedes is no more distinguished than Chevy

Uhh..false.

What Mr. Olsher probably means is that Mercedes-Benz's in Germany are so ubiquitous that they are no more distinguished than Chevy's.  He's right - many/most of the taxi's are Mercedes-Benz's there (tho often with smaller motors, or diesels versions, we don't get there in North America).

They also have manual trannies..something rare indeed to find on any M-B in North America.

[Double Ugly]

Easy does it, fellas.   

macrojack - please, no more personal attacks.  If you want to continue your "discussion" with DGO, take it 'outside' (as in somewhere other than this forum).

Thanks.

[BrianM]

What Mr. Olsher probably means is that Mercedes-Benz's in Germany are so ubiquitous that they are no more distinguished than Chevy's.  He's right - many/most of the taxi's are Mercedes-Benz's there (tho often with smaller motors, or diesels versions, we don't get there in North America).

As worded, it says that in Germany, MB is no more distinguished than Chevrolet.  Ask any German whether he thinks that's true.  Whether or not they're used as cabs or use diesel motors (I know, I've ridden in them, too) don't enter into it.

[acresm22]

Everyone keeps saying that hifi is dying.  Where is the market analysis of this?  What is causing people to say these things?  Also imo Brian Cheney called out Wilson to get publicity.  Its an old well known tactic.  

Re Cheney/Wilson, I attended a local audio demo in the 1990s that had Dave Wilson and Dan D'Agostino of Krell showing off their wares. During Mr. Wilson's speech, he skewered Sonus Faber for making pretty speakers that didn't sound very good....wrong materials, wrong execution, etc.

It was interesting to watch their different styles back then. D'Agostino gave a fairly brief speech about his FPB circuit at the time, talking about rather technical details (Current Plateau Biasing etc.). Then Mr. Wilson got up to give the Dave show...long speech, very effusive language, followed by a demo that featured Dave sitting front and center, eyes closed, giving hand motions to his minions indicating that "just right" volume setting for each carefully chosen musical selection. D'Agostino was standing off to the side at the refreshment table...maybe it was my imagination, but his body language during DW's presentation conveyed everything short of actually rolling his eyes. It wasn't long after that that Krell trotted out its first speaker line....

[bummrush]

Its whatever you're perception is.One thing,and i know people will argue,but who cares,ifyou do want some decent sounding equip. you will pay for it.And it isnt going to be some sub $1000 system,because at that price point some component just wont work out,to many compromises have to be made.,you might have 3 of 4 things that are super good,but there will be at least one holding you back,.But when you get to the 2000 range, its a whole other world,really where about anything can happen,and for the good.I think alot of thiscomes from people trying to put a high end system for a small price and its about impossibe.Who cares what others spend?Manufactures can charge what they want,if people pay so what.What i find interesting is the certain price points of equip.Because in the end most of the time you get what you pay for,sad but true everybody.

[Double Ugly]

Everyone keeps saying that hifi is dying.  Where is the market analysis of this?  What is causing people to say these things?  Also imo Brian Cheney called out Wilson to get publicity.  Its an old well known tactic. 

Re Cheney/Wilson, I attended a local audio demo in the 1990s that had Dave Wilson and Dan D'Agostino of Krell showing off their wares. During Mr. Wilson's speech, he skewered Sonus Faber for making pretty speakers that didn't sound very good....wrong materials, wrong execution, etc.

It was interesting to watch their different styles back then. D'Agostino gave a fairly brief speech about his FPB circuit at the time, talking about rather technical details (Current Plateau Biasing etc.). Then Mr. Wilson got up to give the Dave show...long speech, very effusive language, followed by a demo that featured Dave sitting front and center, eyes closed, giving hand motions to his minions indicating that "just right" volume setting for each carefully chosen musical selection. D'Agostino was standing off to the side at the refreshment table...maybe it was my imagination, but his body language during DW's presentation conveyed everything short of actually rolling his eyes. It wasn't long after that that Krell trotted out its first speaker line....

That *HAD* to have been interesting!  Sounds like D'Agostino's behavior during the "effusive" speech ('nother big dadgum werd; watch it der, acresm22    ) said a lot more than he probably intended.

Unfortunately, I've not yet had the 'privilege' of seeing Wilson in action, but I would imagine it's... educational. 

[Marbles]

Maybe a more pertinent question is whether or not $30k amps (and $20k cables, and $70k speakers) are good for the future of high-end audio. Here are some comments by Dick Olsher back in 2003:


As a consequence, I believe that ultra high-end audio is a dying business currently supported by affluent, brain cramped, baby boomers who are obsessed with the notion of purchasing nothing but the best, where the best is often nothing more than a mirage of hype and misinformation. To survive, high-end audio needs to attract the 30s crowd, and in the process re-discover the appeal of components with the dual virtues of musical integrity and value for the dollar. In other words, re-vitalize the business by emulating these principles established long ago by the late David Hafler and the Dynaco Corporation."

Hey Marbles, his comments in that last paragraph about buyers of uber-expensive gear sounds a little, er, judgemental 

All in good fun. I think you're cool... 

Just off the cuff, I agree with most everything that Big B says in that paragraph with the exception of people who hang out on internet forums like this one.

[Marbles]

Yeah, that meeting must have been interesting AND fun.

[Freo-1]

Regarding the issue of the audio hobby dying, I think it is evolving, but not dying. There will always be a set of us OC audiophiles that think paying 20K for cables is not outrageous (although it IS, even by audiophile standards).

In the 70's and 80's, there were a lot of audio specialty stores, and magazines like Audio available (may it rest in peace) that actually advanced the hobby based on sound engineering principals, not goofy OC notions like 20K cables and wood disks that made your gear sound better.

When home theater became the rage, those people that used to have a casual to moderate interest in music went over to home theater. There are still a few good specialty stores that made this switch, and are providing the public with decent sounding equipment. That is where the future of this hobby is at for the masses.

For the rest of us OC audiophiles, there are 30K amps, 20K cables, and god only knows how much speakers out there to obsess about.     

[Freo-1]

Its whatever you're perception is.One thing,and i know people will argue,but who cares,ifyou do want some decent sounding equip. you will pay for it.And it isnt going to be some sub $1000 system,because at that price point some component just wont work out,to many compromises have to be made.,you might have 3 of 4 things that are super good,but there will be at least one holding you back,.But when you get to the 2000 range, its a whole other world,really where about anything can happen,and for the good.I think alot of thiscomes from people trying to put a high end system for a small price and its about impossibe.Who cares what others spend?Manufactures can charge what they want,if people pay so what.What i find interesting is the certain price points of equip.Because in the end most of the time you get what you pay for,sad but true everybody.

This is only true up to a point. The ulltra high end audio is a bit like exotic cars. You always do not get the payoff in performance for the outlay of monies, but you the pride of ownership associated with that product at it's price point.

I would argue for example, that the speakers of modest price made today can and often perform better than moderately priced one made some years ago, due to improvements in manufacturing and computer aided design. There is lot that goes into getting good sound, not the least of which is the room interaction and acoustics associated with the system. Some of the current generation receivers with he built in equalizing help this out somewhat. 

[DARTH AUDIO]

Lamm is showing at the RMAF. I bet he'll have his $30K monoblocs. I know there is a lot of us from AC that are going to the RMAF. Why don't we all crowd his room and get the answer straight from the Lamm's mouth?? 

[honesthoff]

Lamm is showing at the RMAF. I bet he'll have his $30K monoblocs. I know there is a lot of us from AC that are going to the RMAF. Why don't we all crowd his room and get the answer straight from the Lamm's mouth?? 

Because I don't want Vlad's foot in my teeth.

[macrojack]

I don't think 2bigears meant to specifically challenge Lamm to justify their pricing. The way I read it, he picked Lamm as an example of what he finds puzzling in the valuation of high end products in general.

He wants to know why prices are in the stratosphere. He wants to know why we are willing to pay these prices. He isn't telling anyone how to spend their money. He didn't call anyone an idiot. He isn't jealous of people who can pay these prices (are you?) and he doesn't want to see anyone starve in a Mercedes taxicab.

The problem with these threads lies with the people who can't or don't read and interpret only what is written. And taking snippets out of context for the purpose of inversion, diversion or derision is especially corruptive. Courtesy is an attitude not a set of phrases or slogans.

[arthurs]

I don't think 2bigears meant to specifically challenge Lamm to justify their pricing. The way I read it, he picked Lamm as an example of what he finds puzzling in the valuation of high end products in general.

He wants to know why prices are in the stratosphere. He wants to know why we are willing to pay these prices. He isn't telling anyone how to spend their money. He didn't call anyone an idiot. He isn't jealous of people who can pay these prices (are you?) and he doesn't want to see anyone starve in a Mercedes taxicab.

The problem with these threads lies with the people who can't or don't read and interpret only what is written. And taking snippets out of context for the purpose of inversion, diversion or derision is especially corruptive. Courtesy is an attitude not a set of phrases or slogans.

Seriously?  You call another member a pri*%k and then cast your view of other peoples inability to read and interpret and it's their lack of courtesy that is the issue with threads like this?  Look in the mirror Jack....