Interesting SlimServer experience...

PhilNYC · « **on:** 25 Sep 2007, 07:36 pm »

I'm not sure if I'm going crazy here, but I just made some changes to my computer and network, and I swear that the sound of my system has taken a big leap....

Previously, I was running Slimserver on a 5-year-old eMac G4 (educational version of an iMac) which was connected to my network via a wireless connection (signal strength was about 60%). Over the weekend, my father gave me his <2 year old iMac G5. Instead of using wireless, I set it up close to my router which allowed me to connect via Ethernet. My music was stored on an external Firewire hard drive, so it was easy to just move that drive to the new computer and set up Slimserver with my whole music library. I made sure everything was working yesterday using my SB in my office system, but didn't really listen very carefully.

This morning, I sat down at my reference system and started playing some music on the Transporter. Whoa. I wasn't expecting it at all, but the sound quality took a MAJOR step up...more nuance and detail, better dynamics, better noise-floor. I hadn't listened to the reference system all weekend, but I spent a good couple of hours listening to it on Friday, and the difference was very obvious. I don't know if I'm imagining the improvements, but if I am, I will say that I have a pretty darn good imagination...!

So the things that changed in the system are:

- Slimserver running on a much faster computer
- Slimserver running on a computer attached via Ethernet instead of by a wireless connection.

Does this make sense to anyone?

woodsyi · « **Reply #1 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 08:05 pm »

I thought I heard improvement on wired vs. wireless, but who knows. Bits are bits are bits, right?

When I run foobar with bigger and faster PC, I hear an improvement but slimserver uses buffer on the hardware, right? If so, computing power should not matter....

Scott F. · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 08:10 pm »

Hey Phil,

I wonder if some of the improvement you are hearing is because you moved your new computer to circuit that has less noise on it. That or maybe the G5 has a beefed up power supply compared to your old mac? As you know, power has a huge effect on the sound quality. Might help explain part of what you are hearing.....maybe

Rashiki · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 08:15 pm »

How is your music stored? Lossless? MP3?

The old SlimServer might have been set to transcode or transmit data as MP3, while the new one might be passing uncompressed data over the network. Some people hear a difference between letting the SlimServer decode MP3 versus letting the SqueezeBox decode the compressed data.

Another possibility is that the old server had ReplayGain enabled or the preamplifier attenuation setting enabled.

Is the new SlimServer a newer version? When you switched, did the firmware on your Transporter get upgraded?

-Rob

Double Ugly · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 09:05 pm »

Rashiki's post contains several salient points, but if everything aside from being wired is the same, you wouldn't be the first to report improvement.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to confirm or deny, but I recall Mike Galusha mentioning a difference (primarily noise related IIRC).

Pending your final evaluation, I may have to figure out a way to try it. I don't really have room for a computer, but where there's a will, there's a way, eh?

I'm already planning on getting my wife a MacBook Pro after the new OS is released next month. Maybe Mac will give me a discount if I add an iMac to the order.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 09:48 pm »

Scott...there's actually more stuff plugged into the outlet that my new iMac is plugged into than what was on the old eMac. I can't imagine that the power quality would be the culprit here.

Rashiki...I've actually been very careful with regards to the transcoding settings on Slimserver on both the old and new computers. My music is stored as Apple Lossless, and in both cases, I have Slimserver converting them to WAV before sending over the network to the Transporter. Slimserver and firmware versions are the same (6.5.4). I believe all other settings are the same, although I'll try to re-confirm tonight.

DU...I'll do more listening and see what happens...

mgalusha · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 09:55 pm »

As Jim mentioned, I did observe an improvement with wired vs wireless in my system. This was with SB2's tho and not the transporter. With the wireless there was sometimes a low level noise, primarily in the right channel and it would completely disappear when using a wired ethernet connection. I remember hearing this in Pete G's system as well. Since my SB2 is wired only I never heard this until a few other SB's were brought by the house for audition.

Some wireless routers default to using a burst mode (often labeled "turbo" mode), I don't know if this would affect the sound in any way but I do know my SB3 was much more reliable when I turned this off. My SB3 is stock and used in a crap system, so I can't say if it sounds any better but I know I needed to disable "turbo" mode on the router to make it happy. Turned out my laptop was happier too even though the "turbo" mode was supposed to be faster.

Mike

PhilNYC · « **Reply #7 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 10:07 pm »

Remember here that in my case, I did not change the wireless connection to the Transporter. I changed the wireless connection to a wired connection on the *computer* that is running Slimserver.

mgalusha · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 10:17 pm »

Quote

Remember here that in my case, I did not change the wireless connection to the Transporter. I changed the wireless connection to a wired connection on the *computer* that is running Slimserver.

Even so, if the burst mode of the wireless router causes any weirdness it would still be in the path as it were if either the source or destination device was wireless. As I said, I have no idea if this causes a change in the sound but I get considerably better data transfer rates irrespective of the signal strength with it disable on the router. I have tried this on a Belkin router and also the Netgear we have at work. Both are much better with burst mode disabled. At least when transferring a continuous stream of data. Burst mode is likely faster for things like web surfing where it's only a page worth of data.

In any event, better sound is always a good thing, especially when it's free.

mike

PhilNYC · « **Reply #9 on:** 27 Sep 2007, 05:13 pm »

After another day of listening, I am very convinced that the system sounds better now. I A/B'd a couple of tracks that previously I knew sounded better on my Oracle transport than on the Transporter (both feeding my Dodson DAC)...but now I'd venture to say that using the Transporter gives me at least as good, if not better results.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 Sep 2007, 05:31 pm »

Thanks for the update, Phil.

With that, the next order of business is convincing my wife we *need* to buy another computer, one that'll fit in the already-overflowing den/living room/audio room.

Oughta be a piece of cake, right?

Tweaker · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 Sep 2007, 07:51 pm »

I'd recently done the same and also heard a change in the sound. I can't say if it's better, but it's different. I'm going to switch back to wireless in a day or two and try to get a sense of which I prefer.
Slimdevices recommends a wired connection:

"Wired or Wireless?
Ideally your SlimServer should be wired to your router.
If your SlimServer PC is wirelessly connected to your router, all its traffic will go over two wireless hops: the SlimServer to the router and the router to the Squeezebox. This restricts bandwidth and may cause dropouts in radio-adverse environments with high-bandwidth lossless music formats.
This is not to say it won't work as more than a few SlimServer users do it this way, but caution is advised."

I don't know if the restricted bandwith can affect the sound but something sure changes between the two connection types.

Quote from: PhilNYC on 25 Sep 2007, 10:07 pm

Remember here that in my case, I did not change the wireless connection to the Transporter. I changed the wireless connection to a wired connection on the *computer* that is running Slimserver.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #12 on:** 27 Sep 2007, 08:02 pm »

Quote from: Tweaker on 27 Sep 2007, 07:51 pm

I'd recently done the same and also heard a change in the sound. I can't say if it's better, but it's different. I'm going to switch back to wireless in a day or two and try to get a sense of which I prefer.
Slimdevices recommends a wired connection:

"Wired or Wireless?
Ideally your SlimServer should be wired to your router.
If your SlimServer PC is wirelessly connected to your router, all its traffic will go over two wireless hops: the SlimServer to the router and the router to the Squeezebox. This restricts bandwidth and may cause dropouts in radio-adverse environments with high-bandwidth lossless music formats.
This is not to say it won't work as more than a few SlimServer users do it this way, but caution is advised."

I don't know if the restricted bandwith can affect the sound but something sure changes between the two connection types.
Quote from: PhilNYC on 25 Sep 2007, 10:07 pm
Remember here that in my case, I did not change the wireless connection to the Transporter. I changed the wireless connection to a wired connection on the *computer* that is running Slimserver.

The quoted text seems to me to be in reference to 'classic' network bandwidth issues vs. sound quality. I've not noticed any dropouts, at least by my definition (a pause in or temporary stoppage of music).

Regardless, I'm looking forward to your update. At this point, I can use all the 'new computer' justification fodder I can get!

Tweaker · « **Reply #13 on:** 27 Sep 2007, 08:26 pm »

Quote

The quoted text seems to me to be in reference to 'classic' network bandwidth issues vs. sound quality. I've not noticed any dropouts, at least by my definition (a pause in or temporary stoppage of music).

Regardless, I'm looking forward to your update. At this point, I can use all the 'new computer' justification fodder I can get!

I suspect you're right about that. Just trying to make sense out of why the two configurations should sound different.

I have to say that initially my feeling was that the wired connection sounded worse!

Rashiki · « **Reply #14 on:** 27 Sep 2007, 08:32 pm »

Quote from: Double Ugly on 27 Sep 2007, 08:02 pm

The quoted text seems to me to be in reference to 'classic' network bandwidth issues vs. sound quality. I've not noticed any dropouts, at least by my definition (a pause in or temporary stoppage of music).

One thing to keep in mind is that the 54Mb/s quoted for wireless networking is the signaling rate and not the actual data transmission rate. With 802.11g, you're lucky to get 30-40% of the signaling rate as actual data throughput. Even assuming a good connection, that's 16 to 22Mb/s, divide that by two (or more if you're also using other wireless devices at the same time), throw in delays caused by interference, etc. and you're getting close to the data rate required for uncompressed CD quality data (1.4Mb/s).

On the other hand, wired networks offer closer to 95% of the specified rate as data bandwidth, and if using an ethernet switch, you could effectively have the equivalent of dedicated 95Mb/s pipes between two devices.

All my SqueezeBoxes and my SlimServer computer are connected to my wired network. I only use wireless for web browsing.

-Rob

ted_b · « **Reply #15 on:** 27 Sep 2007, 08:37 pm »

My Slimserver is wired, but my SB3 and transporter have always been wireless, and I've noticed no issues. However, that being said, I can't say running a wire to the player wouldn't improve things...just can't see why. I have no dropouts, etc, and jitter is not an issue with this discussion.

Robert57 · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Sep 2007, 11:32 am »

Phil, are you also connecting your Transporter with a wired ethernet or are you using wi-fi? I understand that that the computer running Slimserver is now wired to the network. So we are talking about two network connections here, right?--(1) the computer runnning slimserver wired to the router, and (2) the Transporter or SB. I wonder if you are finding that (1) is more important than (2) for reducing jitter and improving sound via a wired connection. I am still hoping to go with a wireless SB2 setup, but with a wired Mac Mini / Slimserver with apple lossless..

Thanks for sharing these findings.

Rob

PhilNYC · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Sep 2007, 01:27 pm »

Quote from: Robert57 on 28 Sep 2007, 11:32 am

Phil, are you also connecting your Transporter with a wired ethernet or are you using wi-fi? I understand that that the computer running Slimserver is now wired to the network. So we are talking about two network connections here, right?--(1) the computer runnning slimserver wired to the router, and (2) the Transporter or SB. I wonder if you are finding that (1) is more important than (2) for reducing jitter and improving sound via a wired connection. I am still hoping to go with a wireless SB2 setup, but with a wired Mac Mini / Slimserver with apple lossless..

Thanks for sharing these findings.

Rob

The Transporter is still connected via wireless. So the only changes made were (1) Slimserver is running on a faster computer, and (2) the computer is connected to my network via Ethernet (instead of wireless). No changes were made to anything in my audio system, including the Transporter's network connection. I'm not able to try the Transporter with Ethernet...to do that, I would have to bring the computer over to my audio system, which is pretty impractical at this point...

gbeard · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 Sep 2007, 02:09 pm »

Hi all,

I have found this thread to be very interesting indeed. I have had my SB2 (now RWA SB2) running exclusively on wireless until just recently when I connected it to Ethernet. I have noticed an overall improvement in performance too, although I am not sure it is "better" playback quality that is the whole reason.

Like many others here, while I really liked the convenience of the wireless connection, I had noise issues as well. I found the worst of the noise could be directly attributed to a fluorescent light 20 feet away and a microwave when operating. I listened for quite some time thinking I could detect a low level background noise even with the light and MW off, but I thought it was coming from elsewhere in my system. It wasn't until late one evening when the ambient noise level of my house was very low, that I noticed noise coming from my speakers after turning off my system. The source of this noise was the SB2 and it seemed to be some type of frequency interference since I could move the SB2's antenna and change the level of the noise. So what was the cause? Switching power supplies in the house? the fridge running? Wireless telephones? Neighbors WIFI? Homeland Security? Cosmic cataclysm? All could be causes I suppose.

It took me a long time to come to this conclusion since the noise level constantly changed from somewhat problematic to barely noticible and the level of noise through the speakers was easily masked by other noises in the house. How did I know the noise was from the SB2 and not some other component? Almost anything can cause noise in an audio system, however it is pretty easy to track the source when ALL components are turned off and unplugged from power and there is STILL noise coming through the speakers! I never noticed this problem with my vinyl rig. So I disconnected the RCA's from the SB2's analog outputs to the amplifiers and the noise when away immediately.

This realization about the downside of wireless operation in a high end system caused my change to Ethernet connection and have been very happy with the results. There is no background noise and operation is much more robust in general. I still can't believe it took me so long to find the problem.

So again, I cannot be certain whether the sound reproduction itself is better, but IMHO, there is a clear upside to using the Ethernet connection in a SB.

Cheers,
Gary

konut · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 Sep 2007, 02:39 pm »

I can't find it now, but someone mentioned, on the SlimDevices forum, that when an ethernet cable is plugged in to a SB the WiFi section of the SB is turned off. Could the source of noise be the radio frequency hash that the Wifi section puts out?