[AdamM]

Please forgive me if this has been discussed ad-nauseum ..... .  . . .    ..         .                  .                                .                                                 .

Here's what i want to know:  for any given length, is silver wire different than copper, in any kind of measurable or detectable degree?

Yes, capacitance is a factor of diameter and dielectric.  Given equal functions of each.

Silver is the best conductor there is, that's plain physics in action. Unarguable. However, is copper linear in it's less-than-ideal-conductivity? and if so, does that characteristic impart any kind of measurable sonic signature?

So, given interconnects and speaker cables, is the 'purity' of silver any different than copper: IE is copper's resistance non-linear enough to impart any kind of measurable or perceptive signature to the signal in comparison to a pure AG?  Since copper is not the BEST conductor, is that 'non best' aspect of it linear and equal, or is there a response curve that's significant in any way?

Just curious.   I have a few hundred feet of pure 30AWG fine silver wire..........  Big deal or no?

Thanks,
/A

[markC]

Why not build some fine silver ic's ala Chris V and do some listening comparo's. Then you and your ears will know first hand. I built 2 pairs a couple of years ago and changing ic's is the last thing on my mind with my set-up.
Since you already have the wire, it'll be a cheap experiment and may prove very worth while.

[Zyca]

Please forgive me if this has been discussed ad-nauseum ..... .  . . .    ..         .                  .                                .                                                 .

Here's what i want to know:  for any given length, is silver wire different than copper, in any kind of measurable or detectable degree?

Yes, capacitance is a factor of diameter and dielectric.  Given equal functions of each.

Silver is the best conductor there is, that's plain physics in action. Unarguable. However, is copper linear in it's less-than-ideal-conductivity? and if so, does that characteristic impart any kind of measurable sonic signature?

So, given interconnects and speaker cables, is the 'purity' of silver any different than copper: IE is copper's resistance non-linear enough to impart any kind of measurable or perceptive signature to the signal in comparison to a pure AG?  Since copper is not the BEST conductor, is that 'non best' aspect of it linear and equal, or is there a response curve that's significant in any way?

Just curious.   I have a few hundred feet of pure 30AWG fine silver wire..........  Big deal or no?

From my personal experience, if silver is not very pure, or in the case of silver plating not being thick enough, the sound will become thinner and quite harsh.  If however, the silver you used is of very high quality, none of the usual drawbacks that people often talked about silver will be found there.

I personally found copper to be slightly warmer than silver, unless you are using silver for very small signals, I would recommend braiding your 30 gauge wire into something thicker for your signal interconnect, I kinda fear it might be too thin if you only use a couple strand.  But then again, you can give it a try, and that's what the fun is with DIY.

Do let us know the result

[ezkcdude]

You know what would be great? Platinum. Too bad it's more expensive than silver, and way too brittle to make cables.

[AdamM]

Why would platinum be great?  It doesn't oxidize, right?  Is it more conductive than gold, but with that juicy lack of corrosion?

Let's make a cable of vanadium-silicon and chill it to 17.5K.  Superconductor!!

[mcullinan]

Copper rules!!!! Yeah copper! Though Ive never invested in really really expensive silver cables... The copper just sounds more natural. Just my opine onion.
Mike
Addendum: SIlvers your a LOSER

[woodsyi]

Forget copper, silver or gold.  If you look at the periodic table below, you can clearly see that element 111, Roentgenium,http://www.apsidium.com/elements/111.htm would be the best for high fidelity -- it's rare, fleeting and probably expensive.    :

[KCI-JohnP]

Is it more conductive than gold, but with that juicy lack of corrosion?

I may have misunderstood you Adam and if I did forgive me but gold doesn't suffer from corrosion.

John

[AdamM]

Sorry, yeah, not worded that well. I should have said:  Platinum ALSO doesn't corrode, yet has higher conductivity than gold - which isn't true!:

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/electrical.html

According to my googleing of the last few minutes, silver is still #1, even compared to boutique high atomic number elements.

#1. Silver
#2. Copper
#3. Gold

And of course, they're all much more inferior compared to vanadium-silicon at 17.5K

Or if we want the 'warmest' superconductivity, it's at 133k using Mercury compounds....

[*Scotty*]

AdamM, For any cable you make the geometry you use in constructing the cable will contribute in a large way to how the cable sounds and measures. There may be a geometry that is ideal for a given conductor dependent on its metallurgy. I haven't tested silver extensively. I have made interconnects out of 24ga. insulated with 18ga. teflon tubing. I used a three wire
braid, two grounds and one hot. The design was pleasant to listen to but lacked dynamics,frequency extension and detail. If I did this again I would twist three uninsulated wires together
and insulate them with what ever size teflon tubing they would easily fit into. I would then make a simple twisted pair for an IC with about one twist per inch. Be advised that silver work hardens very quickly and then becomes brittle. This shouldn't happen as quickly with 30ga. as it does with 24ga.and 20ga. A single strand as a conductor has problems with dynamics and for some reason sounds harmonically thin. Too many strands looses focus in the sound stage and the highs become hashy and the bass becomes bloated. Constructing a cable becomes an exercise in balancing focus with the preservation of dynamics and frequency extension. Manipulating the size of the sound stage can be done to a degree by varying the capacitance per foot with the rate of twist per foot. The size of the sound stage;height,width and depth are still something of a crap shoot but these parameters are definitely dependent on the cable geometry. Be sure to use a low temperature melting point solder and don't try to remelt your solder joints. Silver solder will crystallize upon reheating and give you a brittle solder joint.
I would recommend pure copper or pure silver RCA plugs. Brass sounds grungy in comparison and has much worse conductivity. You may also want to stay away from BeCu alloys as they have about 10% the conductivity of pure copper. Here is a link to to a source for teflon tubing,search on teflon tubing in the find products column  of the left side of the page. I would lean toward FEP or PTFE tubing with no coloring added to it.
  I admit to having become cheap and lazy which is why I have not played around with silver recently. The last time I fooled with it was back in the early 90s.  I have been very pleased with the sound of copper and I haven't made any cables in over 3 years since switching to Reality Cables.
Have fun experimenting ,Scotty

[Reference Audio Mods]

I would try 1 24awg silver wire strand with natural unbleached cotton tubing.

I tried the Teflon tubing (back and forth, switching the tubing out with cotton) and it killed the sound, also the teflon made it sound forward, harsh and the famous "bright" sound. So we find that the signal travels on the surface of the wire, and anything that is directly touching the surface will be introduced into the music. Teflon and PVC are synthetic materials, natural unbleached cotton is not, so maybe thats the reason why?

I dont think about cables or  upgrading or such anymore, this topology works and sounds the best for me and has for some years now.

[Steve Eddy]

So we find that the signal travels on the surface of the wire, and anything that is directly touching the surface will be introduced into the music.

Where exactly do we find this?

The "signal" is the transverse electromagnetic wave which propagates down the wires which exists outside the conductor and are affected by the medium through which they're propagating, which includes even that which is not directly touching the surface.

se

[DaveC113]

I would try 1 24awg silver wire strand with natural unbleached cotton tubing.

I tried the Teflon tubing (back and forth, switching the tubing out with cotton) and it killed the sound, also the teflon made it sound forward, harsh and the famous "bright" sound. So we find that the signal travels on the surface of the wire, and anything that is directly touching the surface will be introduced into the music. Teflon and PVC are synthetic materials, natural unbleached cotton is not, so maybe thats the reason why?

I dont think about cables or  upgrading or such anymore, this topology works and sounds the best for me and has for some years now.

I agree. I've had good results with Jupiter Condenser cotton insulated wire making a few diy ICs. I made one with 1 strand of 28g silver w/ a 20g magnet wire ground, using Anti-Cable IC geometry, another with 8 strands 28g Cu in a double helix like the VHAudio Chela cable... they both sound great, but the 8 strand sounds best in my system, while the single Ag strand was clearly preferable in another, warmer sounding system. My system is more neutral and detailed rather than warm or laid-back (Omega XRS). I think your preferences will depend on the system, and your personal preference.

Your 30g wire is worth testing, it may or may not work out depending on its metallurgy. This seems like one good reason to buy wire from an audio supplier rather than an industrial source, but if you have the wire, give it a shot. I would try making a short pair using a simple twisted pair geometry... its not an ideal IC, imo, but will give you an idea if the wire sounds ok.  

Dave

[*Scotty*]

RAM is right about plastic insulators,by using cotton or silk "tubing" as an insulator you have something closer to air as a dielectric. This should result in a more open sound stage with better dynamics but I would still experiment with more than a single strand per conductor. Your preferences may be different than RAMs and your associated equipment is definitely different. Hence YMMV! Here is a source for cotton and silk tubing. See link  http://www.diyaudiostore.com/cotton/cotton.htm   As said in my earlier post I haven't played with DIY silver ICs or speaker cable since about 1992. Cotton and silk tubing is now readily available. It may be considerably trickier to run a conductor through if the tubing isn't a loose fit. Be careful in how you twist the insulated conductors as the object when making a twisted pair or a braid is to have a uniform capacitance per foot avoiding wild variances in the capacitance over the length of the cable.
If you tackle this project and build your own cables please let us know how they turn out and any difficulties you encounter along the way.
Scotty

[Steve Eddy]

I agree. I've had good results with Jupiter Condenser cotton insulated wire making a few diy ICs. I made one with 1 strand of 28g silver w/ a 20g magnet wire ground...

Should also have compared two strands of 28 gauge silver to two strands of the 20 gauge magnet wire.

The whole notion of separate "signal" and "ground" doesn't really apply here. The signal doesn't propagate just down the "signal" wire. It propagates between the two conductors. It doesn't know "ground" from well... a hole in the ground.

This also goes for the notion of a separate "send" and "return." The signal is AC. Current alternately flows in both directions in both wires. So half the time your "send" is a "return" and your "return" is a "send."

se

[Steve Eddy]

RAM is right about plastic insulators,by using cotton or silk "tubing" as an insulator you have something closer to air as a dielectric.

Not really.

The website you link to gives a dielectric constant for cotton of 1.3 to 1.4. This only applies to cotton in its raw form. In textile form (such as the braided tubing), it's higher. Higher than Teflon. Closer to 3, and that's largely dependent on how much moisture there is in the cotton which can significantly effect its dielectric constant.

That's not to say one shouldn't use silk or cotton. I prefer them myself over Teflon. But it's not because you have an insulator that's closer to air as a dielectric.

Be careful in how you twist the insulated conductors as the object when making a twisted pair or a braid is to have a uniform capacitance per foot avoiding wild variances in the capacitance over the length of the cable.

Don't have to be that precise with it (though it does look better). Any audio signal is only going to see the lump capacitance of the cable.

se

[*Scotty*]

If in fact cotton or silk has a higher dielectric constant in tubing form than teflon do you have a theory as to why a textile sounds better than a solid insulator when used to insulate a conductor in a cable. I would still argue that a silk or cotton tubing will have a lower density of material and at least a certain amount of air next to the conductor than a solid plastic. As far as the uniformity of geometry is concerned,I would say the jury is still out on that one. If the audio signal only sees the lump capacitance of the cable than the sound staging could be manipulated via a simple addition or subtraction of a capacitor across the cable from hot to ground. This has not been the case in my experience. The bandwidth of the connection between the two devices,ie [a DVD player and a preamp] is dependent on the filter pole defined by the RL plus the lump capacitance but dismissing the importance of the cable geometry and its relationship to how the cable sounds is an over simplification. 
As far as AdamM is concerned, I fear that the discussion has gone beyond the requirements necessary for a simple experiment with DIY cabling and into the realm electrical theory.
AdamM can determine what works for him with some empirical trail and error and have some fun along the way.
Scotty

[*Scotty*]

Further web searching dug up this reference to dielectric absorption constants See link http://www.clippercontrols.com/info/dielectric_constants.html
How ever the dielectric absorption changes when cotton or silk is formed into textile tubing according to the above reference cotton has a DA constant of 1.3-1.4 and silk is 2.5 to 3.5 none of which changes the fact that the stuff sounds good.
Scotty

[DaveC113]

I agree. I've had good results with Jupiter Condenser cotton insulated wire making a few diy ICs. I made one with 1 strand of 28g silver w/ a 20g magnet wire ground...

Should also have compared two strands of 28 gauge silver to two strands of the 20 gauge magnet wire.

The whole notion of separate "signal" and "ground" doesn't really apply here. The signal doesn't propagate just down the "signal" wire. It propagates between the two conductors. It doesn't know "ground" from well... a hole in the ground.

This also goes for the notion of a separate "send" and "return." The signal is AC. Current alternately flows in both directions in both wires. So half the time your "send" is a "return" and your "return" is a "send."

se

You can always second guess and say something else could have been better. Having a limited amount of time, I can only do so much. Anyhow, as far as seeing no difference between signal and ground, thats not how I see it. Ground is defined as a reference, while the positive and negative voltage swings in the signal wire are the music signal. There are reasons I chose to use a heavier gage ground wire, the functions of the 2 wires are different. All of which has little to do with whether or not the op has a material of any use for audio purposes.  

Now, as far as being "close to air" as a dielectric, cotton is less homogenious than teflon, and I'd argue that there is less actual contact between the cotton insulation and the conductor compared to plastic insulation. The dielectric constant might not be as accurate of a tool as you think for measuring audible changes in insulation material... just like LCR specs won't tell you everything about how an IC or speaker cable will sound.

Dave

[Steve Eddy]

If in fact cotton or silk has a higher dielectric constant in tubing form than teflon do you have a theory as to why a textile sounds better than a solid insulator when used to insulate a conductor in a cable.

Nope. I can't even say with certainty that there's any actual audible difference between the two. I just know what I prefer and don't much care about why.

I would still argue that a silk or cotton tubing will have a lower density of material and at least a certain amount of air next to the conductor than a solid plastic.

Certainly. But if the solids of the silk or cotton have a significantly higher dielectric constant than the solid material you're comparing it to, you're not necessarily going to end up with a lower effective dielectric constant.

Also, the porous nature of silk or cotton tubing allows it to take on moisture from the air in a way that a solid dielectric will generally not. Water at room temperature has a dielectric constant of about 80, dramatically higher than that of cotton or silk. So the presence of a very small amount of water can significantly affect the effective dielectric constant.

As far as the uniformity of geometry is concerned,I would say the jury is still out on that one. If the audio signal only sees the lump capacitance of the cable than the sound staging could be manipulated via a simple addition or subtraction of a capacitor across the cable from hot to ground. This has not been the case in my experience. The bandwidth of the connection between the two devices,ie [a DVD player and a preamp] is dependent on the filter pole defined by the RL plus the lump capacitance but dismissing the importance of the cable geometry and its relationship to how the cable sounds is an over simplification.

How a cable may sound doesn't change the fact that audio frequencies only see the lump cable capacitance. The electrical wavelengths at audio frequencies are just too damned long to see anything but the lump cable capacitance.

As far as AdamM is concerned, I fear that the discussion has gone beyond the requirements necessary for a simple experiment with DIY cabling and into the realm electrical theory. AdamM can determine what works for him with some empirical trail and error and have some fun along the way.

Sure. And I wouldn't suggest otherwise.

But when people pass things off regarding electrical theory as fact which are just plain wrong, I think it's deserving of comment.

se