[nrenter]

The room I have is less than ideal (to say the least).



It is 136 inches wide by 131 inches long, and 144 inches high (almost a cube) and has hardwood floors. I have not purchased equipment for my space yet (thinking about Ayre AX-7e + Acoustic Zen Adagios).

I figure the speakers will sit near the corners against the wall with the window. I need to also fit a desk in this room, and would like to put in a bookcase (or two) to hold vinyl. I'll also put some sort of rug on the floor. And before someone types "big-ass bass traps", there will be some WAF involved in all decisions regarding room treatments.

I don't even know where to begin...so I'll just say, "Help!!!!"

[bpape]

OK.  Well how about we define some parameters that we have to stay within in terms of making the room sound better?  Realistically, in an almost cubic room, bass absorption is a must - sorry.  There's a lot you can do to help yourself out in terms of speaker and seating placement to help frequency response issues.  The decay time issues are another story.

One thing I would recommend in a space like that is to set up in a nearfield listening environment.

Bryan

[zybar]

Nearfield listening to some nice monitors that don't go much deeper than 50Hz would be a good starting point.

BTW, most speakers won't be too happy (i.e. sound anywhere near their best) in the corners - including the Acoustic Zen Adagios.

I think you might want to look at speakers from Audio Note, Rega, Naim, Linn, and other European brands that are designed to work well in smaller rooms up against or quite close to room boundaries.

Good luck.

George

[nrenter]

First of all, thanks for your help. I really do appreciate it.

I wouldn't put the speakers *directly* in the corners. Most likely, it would be some combination of 1/5th or 1/7th of the room width from the side walls, and 1/5th or 1/7th of the room length away from the front wall (with the window). Just from walking the room, that makes geometric sense (whether or not it makes acoustical sense remains to be answered).

Oh, from these theoretical speaker positions, I figure I have about 7' of distance from the speaker to my ear.

Also, I'm looking into using 2' x 4' x 2" fiberglass panels in the room. I figure one flanking each side of the large window, one on each of the side walls just near the corners by the wall with the large window, then a panel or two just above my desk (assuming the desk is centered on the wall opposite the large window. Maybe a panel just beside the double-door on the side wall, and another panel between the bathroom door and the wall opposite of the large window.

As for speakers, I was really hoping to go with smaller, front-ported floor standers (like the Adagios). My last set of speakers were B&W N805s, and I really did like them. I used a REL with my N805s in a much larger room and really liked the sound. The reason I was thinking about something like an Adagio was because of the MTM config w/ a front-facing IB port (to load the room from multiple sources) to try to minimize the impact of loading an already challenged room with low-end from a single point.

Can someone give me an example of a bass traps that would be appropriate in a room like this? Maybe my prejudices are clouding my vision.

[musicman06]

Personally in a room like that nearfield sealed box monitors would likely be preferrable to ported floorstanders. But, if that's what you like it may take some getting used to the monitors. Lots of different bass traps out there, and covered already in other threads. Gik Acoustics tri-traps may be a good idea for the corners, and the 2 or 4x4 panels for the main reflection points.

[JLM]

Its rooms like this that give audio a bad reputation.  IMO the room is more important than amp, pre-amp, even the source (gasp heresy!).  You're wrestling with a pig here, this room doesn't "deserve" nice equipment.  You'll get one note bass boom, crummy imaging depth with the big window between the speakers, and I'm not sure where you'll sit to listen if a desk goes opposite the window/speakers.

I'd be thinking hard about using headphones for critical listening and smaller/less expensive speakers with a 60 - 80 Hz cut-off that could move later on into a HT system for casual listening.  High-end audio in this room would an excercise in fustration.

[bpape]

If you can move it to the other area in your sketch, that'd be a better option.  I'm thinking something like an ACI Sapphire would be an excellent choice in either of the places. 

Bryan

[Ethan Winer]

Can someone give me an example of a bass traps that would be appropriate in a room like this? Maybe my prejudices are clouding my vision.

Any (good) bass traps you can get will help. Bass trapping is all about surface coverage, assuming a competent product or design. Bryan and I both sell bass traps and other treatment, and we both have Products pages with lots of photos you can look at.

--Ethan

[nrenter]

ok...I've done a bit more noodling on this.



The red indicates 2" room treatments (generally 4' high and 2' or 4' in width). There will also be Pollywood shutters over the windows (not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing). There will also be a rug on the floor.

The dots around the speaker representation indicate potential locations for the speakers (around 1/5th or 1/7 of the room length and width).

Thoughts?

[bpape]

Good for general decay time control and overall control down to maybe 200Hz.  2" isn't thick enough to reach down lower.  If you can swing it, 4" straddling the corners is your best bet short of a solid chunk.

Bryan

[toobluvr]

George's (zybar) rec of nearfield listening with good monitors, or a pair of small floorstanders, is a good one...takes the room out of play.  If more bass is needed, a sub can be added and moved around the room for best LF performance.

There are a few exceptions, but to perform their best, most speakers like to breathe and have a fair amount of air around them.  If they must be jammed into corners, consider sealed or front ported designs that do not have huge woofers or produce prodigious bass, or you will be hammered by overwhelming bass.

Don't forget to consider a diagonal setup in which the speakers straddle a corner such that they fire into the opposite diagonal corner.  I have been in difficult rooms in which this was effective.

[doug s.]

here's my basic standard reply for a room like this:

proac tablette 8 reference signatures.     they also work well in large rooms, especially when crossed over to subs.  these are fantastic speakers in any room; their diminutuve size makes them perfect for small rooms, imo...

http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/tabref8sig.php



doug s.

[8thnerve]

Don't forget corner treatments of some kind.  With the small dimensions of that room, the distortion from those corners will make the music harsh and unbearable even with the perfect set of speakers.

[nrenter]

ok...I've noodled on this a bit more.



Here's where we stand:

1. The window (effectively 6' x 7' with a 3' arch on top) will be covered with Pollywood shutters.

2. Next to the window, mounted 18" from the floor will be 2' x 4' x 2" high-density (6-7#pcf) glass fiber panels.

3. On the side walls, mounted 18" from the floor will be 4' x 4' x 2" high-density (6-7#pcf) glass fiber panels.

4. In the corners, and mounted on top of the high-density (6-7#pcf) glass fiber panels will be 4' quarter-round bass traps.

5. Behind the desk, mounted 18" from the floor will be a 4' x 4' x 2" high-density (6-7#pcf) glass fiber panel.

6. On the floor will be a 5' x 8' rug.

7. Various bookshelves filled with CDs, vinyl and books.

8. Speakers are positioned on intersecting ratios of 1/5th width and 1/7th length or 1/5th width and 1/5th length.

9. Listening position is between 6' and 7' away from the speakers. I'm assuming this would be considered "near field" (I think near field is the only option in this room).

I'm really appreciating the feedback...thanks for all the suggestions. Any other thoughts?

[8thnerve]

ok...I've noodled on this a bit more.



Here's where we stand:

1. The window (effectively 6' x 7' with a 3' arch on top) will be covered with Pollywood shutters.

2. Next to the window, mounted 18" from the floor will be 2' x 4' x 2" high-density (6-7#pcf) glass fiber panels.

3. On the side walls, mounted 18" from the floor will be 4' x 4' x 2" high-density (6-7#pcf) glass fiber panels.

4. In the corners, and mounted on top of the high-density (6-7#pcf) glass fiber panels will be 4' quarter-round bass traps.

5. Behind the desk, mounted 18" from the floor will be a 4' x 4' x 2" high-density (6-7#pcf) glass fiber panel.

6. On the floor will be a 5' x 8' rug.

7. Various bookshelves filled with CDs, vinyl and books.

8. Speakers are positioned on intersecting ratios of 1/5th width and 1/7th length or 1/5th width and 1/5th length.

9. Listening position is between 6' and 7' away from the speakers. I'm assuming this would be considered "near field" (I think near field is the only option in this room).

I'm really appreciating the feedback...thanks for all the suggestions. Any other thoughts?

#4 - Make sure the rounds have a reflective front layer.  You can use cardboard cement molds they sell at Home Depot cut into quarters to provide the facing.

[bpape]

Overall that looks like a good start.

I would disagree with a reflective layer on the bass absorbers - especially something as rigid and thick as the concrete forms.  That room is so live that the little extra upper mid and high frequency absorbtion that they would provide will likely be welcome.

Bryan

[8thnerve]

Overall that looks like a good start.

I would disagree with a reflective layer on the bass absorbers - especially something as rigid and thick as the concrete forms.  That room is so live that the little extra upper mid and high frequency absorbtion that they would provide will likely be welcome.

Bryan

I don't think they'll need more high and mid frequency absorption if that corner distortion is removed.  It would be interesting to hear what the results are with and without.

[nrenter]

Update...

I've purchased a desk, bookcase, small media cabinet and a rug for the room. The placement of these items is pretty much fixed. I haven't purchased wall treatments yet, but this is my current thought on sound pannels:

1) A single 6' x 4' x 2" on the rear wall (18" off the ground).
2) Four 2' x 4' x 2" in the corners of the front wall / side walls (18" off the ground).
3) Two 4' high 8" radius quarter rounds on top of the 2' x 4' x 2" in the corners of the front wall / side walls (18" off the ground).

Here's the latest diagram:



The speakers will be about 7' apart, and each speaker will be about 7' from the listening position.

After placing this furniture in the room, I think you guys are right - I really do need to consider monitor speakers in this space. Does anyone have experience with Green Mountain Audio's Callistos? From a design perspective, they seem like they'd have great synergy with Ayre equipment, and would give me the time / phase alignment that I desire from the Vandersteen line in a compact, monitor package.

For those unfamiliar, here's a link to the Green Mountain Audio Callistos.

[bpape]

I'd recommend taking the 2x4 panels that you have butted in the corner by the quarter round and moving it back along the wall a bit to cover your reflection  points.  This will also make the same amount of absorbtion more efficient by better distributing it in the space.

Bryan

[doug s.]

funny, that was my exact thought!  almost!     i'd add these panels, not move the panels shown.  (and, as a side note, the 1st reflection point on the right hand side may actually be at the door, so paneling would be needed here.)

doug s.

I'd recommend taking the 2x4 panels that you have butted in the corner by the quarter round and moving it back along the wall a bit to cover your reflection  points.  This will also make the same amount of absorbtion more efficient by better distributing it in the space.

Bryan