[slow_down]

So last Wednesday I got my first stereo - my first real stereo, anyway, with separates, nicer cables and decent speakers.  Got it all from Odyssey which has a great reputation here.  I'm having some problems though.  If you're bored, feel free to look at the thread I started on the Odyssey circle, but long story short, I'm having problems getting used to the sound and more than likely have some location issues and room acoustic problems.  Hoping I can get some help here.


So this is my living room - some of the measurements may be off by an inch or two, but it's really pretty accurate.


And here's a photo of where my stereo is set up , in the sunroom area of the living room by all the windows (shortly after taking the picture, I moved the preamp off the amp in case anyone was worried).  I've since removed the chairs and moved the speakers back closer to the windows behind them which has helped a little.

So any thoughts on what I can do?  Curtains and rugs are not in the cards anytime too soon, but I could experiment with blankets, thick towels and whatever else I can improvise with just to see what kind of improvements are possible.  Also, speaker placement ideas would be much appreciated.  Thanks.

[low.pfile]

I'm no room treatment expert at all. Folks who are will chime in with traps and diffuser recommendations soon enough.

Some pretty obvious stuff (I've followed your other thread on your new system):
Have you lowered the window blinds and listened for a difference, blinds should help focus your imaging a bit by providing a bit of diffusion.

And on your comment on "...no rugs in the near future." ....I guess you don't have an ikea store nearby? You can get a 6 foot x 4 foot area rug for as low as $15. If you do check it out.

[bpape]

If rugs and curatins are out, then I suspect treatments to deal with the larger issues are also out for the time being.  In all honesty, the best thing you can do is get things away from the walls and sit in the extreme nearfield for listening.  Hanging some towels maybe 4-5 thicknesses at the reflection points on the side walls will also help some.  Take another 8-10 towels and make a 1 long, 2 wide thick and lay on the floor between you and the speakers.

This will give you a tiny taste of killing the nastiest reflections.  It will do nothing for the bottom end though.

Bryan

[slow_down]

I'll try experimenting with closing my blinds and laying down towels tonight.

As far as curtains go, a couple questions.  First, my impression was that unless you get big thick curtains, then don't bother.  Little white sheer ones are as good as nothing at all.  Is that right?  How thin can I get away with?  And what if you leave them open - I imagine you still get some benefit but not as much.  Any thoughts on that?

And rugs.  Same kinds of questions.  Would a standard living room wool rug (i.e. not that thick) be worth doing?  Again, how thin can I go and still get practical benefit?  How big?  Location?  I could lay a big one down in the sunroom area and another in front of the sofa.  I guess two is better than one, right?

I really really don't want to put anything on my walls except framed photos and artwork.  Maybe a tapestry.  Is that a huge compromise acoustically?

Lastly, for now that sunroom area is where the speakers have to go, but in about six months I may be moving my TV to another room, which opens up all sorts of new possibilities for locating everything else in my living room.  Based on the floorplan - and again, the furniture and everything is pretty much accurate to scale - what do you think is the best spot for the speakers?

[bpape]

Thin curtains will do nothing - sorry.  Thicker will reach deeper.  When you open them, they'll go deeper yet but you're covering less of the wall - a good compromise.

A moderate rug on the floor just to help kill upper mid/high frequency echo will help.

Leaving hard walls and tons of glass exposed is absolutely a large compromise IMO.

If it was me and I could get out of that area, from the looks of things I'd be facing the bottom of your drawing in the nook on the bottom right.

Bryan

[JLM]

Sorry, but that looks like a terrible room for audio, mostly because of all the hard/reflective surfaces.   

The curtains you need are 2 - 4 inches thick high density fiberglass.   

Could you use GIK bass triangles below the windows?

Frankly you should have considered headphones for now.    

[slow_down]

The curtains you need are 2 - 4 inches thick high density fiberglass.   

I presume you're joking about that part.  What you're describing sounds more like batt insulation than a window treatment. 

And like I mentioned earlier, my TV might be moving early next year to another room, which brings more flexibility as far as placing the speakers - one possibility is where the TV is currently located.

And I'm sick of listening to headphones!!

Oh, the only other possibility I haven't mentioned is the room I'm thinking of moving my TV to.  I could potentially use that instead as an office/listening room, but always assumed it'd be way too small and acoustically impossible for that.  It's approx 9x9x9 (no kidding).  On the plus side, I could make it as ugly as I want and already sorta assumed I'd have to for my TV setup with thick shaggy rug and something for the walls and corners.

[8thnerve]

What are the apparent problems?  Harsh highs, echo, listener fatigue, uneven response?  All of the above?

[slow_down]

What are the apparent problems?  Harsh highs, echo, listener fatigue, uneven response?  All of the above?

Possibly all of the above.  In some parts of the room the bass feels way absent.  In others it shows up more but just sorta hits me wrong, like it isn't getting along with the mid's and highs.  I can point to the bass, and the treble, but they feel like they have nothing to do with each other.

The mids feel a little pinched and harsh - like a really loud sort pinched sound, where I'd prefer it be quieter yet more open.  The overall effect is for somewhat displeasing sound on many songs.  I find that the songs I enjoy the most on this system tend to be acoustic and/or spare arrangements with few instruments.  Listening to those types of recordings, I feel like I'm hearing more of the instruments and can begin to understand why my equipment is consided to be several orders above anything you'd buy at a Best Buy.  But with more typical pop/rock with busier arrangements, it just gets sorta hard to listen to.  I think.  To tell you the truth I'm beginning to lose trust in my ears.

[8thnerve]

It sounds like you are overwhelmed with acoustic distortion.  In such a bare room with constricted dimensions and many corners, I assumed that you would respond that all of the symptoms I mentioned were apparent.  Nothing is a substitute for complete treatment, but a few traps (not absorbers) in the main tri-corners will perform magic.

[8thnerve]

And a more radical placement suggestion...  I've seen this work magically in rooms shaped like this before, especially with proper treatment.  I had a store listening room set up like this once with a sub-$1000 system and people were flat out blown away.  Made some of our $10,000+ systems embarrassed.

[slow_down]

Thanks 8thnerve.  Interesting idea.  I'll have to try that configuration tonight.  Last night I was startled to find that everything sounded a whole lot better setting my speakers back just about six inches from the windows and sitting all the way back on the sofa at the other wall.  When I'd go further in to sit in my club chair it got a lot worse.  I'm positive I'm not imagining this.  Any explanation?  I thought sitting against walls was a no no, and having the speakers so relatively close together for how far back I was sitting - isn't that another no no?  Still, it sounded better.

[8thnerve]

Thanks 8thnerve.  Interesting idea.  I'll have to try that configuration tonight.  Last night I was startled to find that everything sounded a whole lot better setting my speakers back just about six inches from the windows and sitting all the way back on the sofa at the other wall.  When I'd go further in to sit in my club chair it got a lot worse.  I'm positive I'm not imagining this.  Any explanation?  I thought sitting against walls was a no no, and having the speakers so relatively close together for how far back I was sitting - isn't that another no no?  Still, it sounded better.

There are no definitive no-no's.  The Audio Physic setup method recommends that you sit as close to the back wall as possible based on the theory that if the distance from the wall to your ears is less than the circumference of your head (I'm not joking) the brain will ignore the repeated information.  Not agreeing or disagreeing, just illustrating a point.  Bass will be strongest at a room boundary like the rear wall.  I've had rooms that sounded great against the back wall with no absorption, and some that sounded terrible.  It depends on the room and the acoustics.  Usually you sit close to a rear wall to compensate for bringing your speakers way out into the room (Audio Physics suggests having the speakers in the center of the room with extreme toe in) which reduces the bass output.  By sitting along the back wall you get more bass and get further from the speakers in that particular setup.  Every point in the room will have a different frequency response, especially in the lower frequencies.  Reducing acoustic distortion corrects for this quite a bit, making most points in the room sound much better.

Try the funny setup I suggested, you may really like it.  But whatever you find, realize that good acoustic treatment will still make a world of difference.

Nathan

[slow_down]

Nathan, I tried the "funny" setup you suggested and it didn't work out very well, at least as my room is now without any treatments.  The best I've come up with so far is what I mentioned earlier - speakers about a half foot against the windows on the far side of the room, and my listening position on the sofa on the opposite wall.

But I tried something else just for kicks.  I have a "2nd bedroom" - in quotes because of its ridiculously small size.  It is 9' x 8'11" with 9' ceilings.  It's empty now, and I've been thinking about eventually making it a very, very cozy TV room.  Anyway, I set up the stereo in there and gave it a listen.  I could immediately tell there were all sorts of acoustical "problems", but I have to say I really, really enjoyed listening to a lot of stuff in there.  Everything felt so so much warmer.  I'm sure I lost all sorts of accuracy in the sound (I think), but felt much more "bathed" in warm musical sound if that makes any sense.  Now I'm sure putting tower speakers in a room that small is flat-out ridiculous (and I want my tunes in my living room anyway), but it makes me wonder, are my speakers perhaps undersized for my living room?  Ideally I'd like to get the kind of warmth and "body" that I felt in my 2nd bedroom in my living room without sacrificing detail and accuracy. 

Please don't tell me what I'm really asking for are $3000 speakers!

[8thnerve]

Nathan, I tried the "funny" setup you suggested and it didn't work out very well, at least as my room is now without any treatments.  The best I've come up with so far is what I mentioned earlier - speakers about a half foot against the windows on the far side of the room, and my listening position on the sofa on the opposite wall.

But I tried something else just for kicks.  I have a "2nd bedroom" - in quotes because of its ridiculously small size.  It is 9' x 8'11" with 9' ceilings.  It's empty now, and I've been thinking about eventually making it a very, very cozy TV room.  Anyway, I set up the stereo in there and gave it a listen.  I could immediately tell there were all sorts of acoustical "problems", but I have to say I really, really enjoyed listening to a lot of stuff in there.  Everything felt so so much warmer.  I'm sure I lost all sorts of accuracy in the sound (I think), but felt much more "bathed" in warm musical sound if that makes any sense.  Now I'm sure putting tower speakers in a room that small is flat-out ridiculous (and I want my tunes in my living room anyway), but it makes me wonder, are my speakers perhaps undersized for my living room?  Ideally I'd like to get the kind of warmth and "body" that I felt in my 2nd bedroom in my living room without sacrificing detail and accuracy. 

Please don't tell me what I'm really asking for are $3000 speakers!

Spend $30,000 on a pair of speakers.  They'll still sound like crap in that room unless you treat it.  It's the room, not the speakers.

[bpape]

I'd agree.  It's not the speakers it's the room.

If the other room sounds better to you and you can do what you need to do in there, go for it.  I'm just afraid in the room you have now that you're working with both hands tied behind your back.

Bryan

[slow_down]

I'm committed to making the living room work.  I know I won't be able to make it anywhere near perfect, but am sure there are some things I can do, namely starting with curtains and a couple area rugs.  Beyond that, I'm pretty sure that gigantic bass traps, those corner triangles and stuff like that is out of the picture, but hopefully I can find some decent compromises that I can hide/blend in with my apartment's vintage arts and craft look.  For instance, I could live with a couple of these on a wall if I had to, provided the location was reasonable:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Designer-Acoustic-Panel-Coffee-Series--3001.html

I'm gonna post some more pics of my living room tonight that when looked at with my floorplan should give a good idea of where I may have some easy fixes.  One nice thing - my place is fairly new (to me) and I haven't put anything up on walls yet.

[slow_down]

OK, here are more pics of my living room.  I thought I made it home early enough to use the sun and not my flash, but I didn't.  I hate the way flash makes everything look flat and kinda dingy. 

Anyway, here's my floorplan again:


Rear portion of right wall:


Front portion of my right wall:


Back Wall:


Rear portion of the left wall (it's L shaped):


Front portion of left wall (all windows) and front (more windows):


So is there any hope for this room?  Will buying thicker curtains and a couple area rugs be wasted dollars without gigantic bass traps and door-size panels?  Hard to tell where I'd even put stuff like that in a living room like this.  Any thoughts?

[IronLion]

So many hard, bare surfaces; there must be a lot of reverb going on in there and that can't be good for sound purposes.  A large area rug would go a long way and add some decor as well, and might be the best way to go if you can't do real room treatments of any kind. 

[klh]

I think you should move your speakers and your club chair to the second bedroom and use it soley for listening to music. You could listen in the nearfield, and the likelihood is that you would have more freedom for room treatment. A cube is far from ideal, but at least it's predictable, and you did say that you like that room more. Another benefit is a smaller room is generally cheaper to treat, and if it's your room, the treatments don't have to necessarily fit a strict decor. The small room wouldn't allow much space for treatments, but you could get some of Nathan's products (B-stock??) for the two way and three way corners. Add in a couple tapestries for the 1st reflection points and you'd have a sheik man room . It wouldn't be ideal, but it would be head and shoulders above your current situation. Just some food for thought.