[Marbles]

How far out into the room do you have to pull your speakers to get good front to back layering of the soundstage?

For me it is 6' in front of my TV/equipment racks, or a total of about 8' into the room.

If I don't pull them out this far, the layering collapses.

I'm just curious if this is normal, further than most, or less than most?

[Carlman]

8 feet....    I wish...  
Since my room is 16' deep and I sit about 6' from the back of it, I do not have this kind of luxury.  However, I have found trememdous gains going to 3-4 feet off the wall.  I KNOW it'd be better if there were more room but, there just isn't.    I've heard my speakers in a 17x24 room with them about 8 feet from rear and side walls and they sounded tremendous.  Perfect imaging.  My next house will have this luxury.

With good room treatments, I have gotten excellent results even with the speakers 1-2' off the wall with a huge cabinet between them.  So, I know room treatment, specifically of the 8th Nerve variety can help imaging as much as placement.  

Another thing that helped imaging was measuring the distance to a point in the center and aligning the toe and distance from each speaker to within a millimeter.  Serious improvements.  With 8 feet of distance to a wall, this may not make as big of a difference but, I'd bet it will help.

[Hantra]

I just moved mine lastnight, and they are now about 48 inches from the wall.  They were 57, but I needed more bass, so I moved them.  I didn't notice much diminishing of the soundstage depth.  

I think it all depends on your room size.  Mine's only 14.5 deep, so I think the percentage into the room relative to where you sit is more important than the actual distance.

B

[bwkendall]

What are your room specs?  Are there open doorways  behind where your speakers are located now?  Do you have a large TV monitor in the midst of all of this?  What kind of speakers are you using?  How much distance is there between your listening position and the speakers?

On the surface, I have to say I am quite surprised you need so much space.  You aren't the only person I have encountered with this issue, though.

[Marbles]

Room size is 27' l x 15 w x 8 h  

There are openings at the front left and rear left.  Both are the sizes of double doors.

There is a bar that comes out about 9' into the room from the back and my sofa sits in front of this.

So, I sit about 16 feet from the front wall, and the speakers are about 8 feet from the front wall.  There is a 71" big screen, two equipment racks, amps and subwoofers that make up a wall about 2' deep along the front.  So in fact the speakers are out about 6' from these components.

Prior to really pulling the speakers out into the room I picked most components to give me good depth, now I have that in spades

I do have a customized roompak from 8th Nerve.

One thing I did not mention was opposite of the front opening on the left, there is a brick fireplace about 10' long on the right, floor to ceiling.

Speakers are nOrh 9.0's that have been re-wired with Bolder Nitro wiring.

[bwkendall]

You have one of those interesting room/equipment challenges.  I would bet you could get by having your speakers 6' out from the wall, but that is splitting hairs.  Besides, if that worked you would have left them there, wouldn't you?  ;~)  

Just out of curiosity (and I don't mean to take this in another direction), do you use a center channel in your system?  If you do, where is it placed?

[audiojerry]

I think Marbles question regarded layering and not soundstage depth.
Moving speakers away from the wall behind them increases the perception of soundstage depth, but layering of instruments and/or voices where you can discern some things nearer and others farther away (layering) is a more difficult trick to pull off. Along with this is the phenomenon of height. I don't know if the recording process can actually capture differences in soundstage height, but it seems like the really good systems allow you to hear sounds coming from ear level or lower to elevating over your head. It seems like with mediocre or poor systems, most of the sound to emanates from down near the floor and is very one dimensional.

When things are right, it's not really necessary to have speakers more than 3-4' away from the wall behind them. When speakers are spread too far apart, it can cause a lack of a strong middle image, which screws up layering. Another cause is a recessed midrange, whether it's speakers (usually), wire, or amplification. A recessed midrange makes thngs sound like they are further away towards the center of the soundstage. When you have a high-quality midrange,  layering becomes much more evident. But a good midrange is the sign of a high-quality system, and surprisingly few systems have it. It took me years to realize my midrange was below par. But a good midrange does not mean a dominant midrange, where the lower and higher frequencies are rolled off.  High resolution, and balance are keys to a good midrange.

ramble, ramble, ramble....

[Marbles]

I think Marbles question regarded layering and not soundstage depth.
...

Correct!


I do use a center channel for HT and it sits on the RPTV.

The image height is fine, just like I'd expect it to be.

I have a very strong middle image.  Actually everything is fine now except that I think the speakers are too far into the room and it just didn't look right to me.

I guess I have more placement playing with width and depth and toe in etc...at least I know where I CAN get great playback

Thanks for all your help.

[bwkendall]

but how well do the speakers pan from left to right, vice verse?

[Marbles]

Everything was great except layering, once I brought the speakers out into the room more, the speakers layered well, as well as doing panning and everything else just fine.

I have absolutely no complaints about how it now sounds, just about how far into the room the speakers are.  I will play with them back about two feet and experiment with width and toe in ect..

[bwkendall]

and I wound up getting my best results about 3-1/2' to 4' into the room with 8' between the speakers.  Happy listening and good luck with your tweaks.

[John Casler]

How far out into the room do you have to pull your speakers to get good front to back layering of the soundstage?

For me it is 6' in front of my TV/equipment racks, or a total of about 8' into the room.

If I don't pull them out this far, the layering collapses.

I'm just curious if this is normal, further than most, or less than most?

I have played with this parameter quite a bit and have used both my RM40s and 626Rs.

Currently the RM40s are only 2.5 feet (to their back corner) from the front wall.

This puts them about even with the front edge of my electronic racks and RPTV.  

I used to have them 1-2 feet further into the room (3-5 feet), but after buying some rather inexpensive acoustic foam and just standing or draping it over my RPTV and electronics, the more "forward postition" wasn't needed.

Along with this is the phenomenon of height. I don't know if the recording process can actually capture differences in soundstage height, but it seems like the really good systems allow you to hear sounds coming from ear level or lower to elevating over your head. It seems like with mediocre or poor systems, most of the sound to emanates from down near the floor and is very one dimensional.

I have thought about this too, and obviously it would be impossible to record or "place" height like we do with lateral placement since the stereo signal is sent "equally" to each speaker and there is no "variation" for the brain to create a "height" based on signal variance as in stereo.

But it is unquestionable that we perceive a specific and direct height to most sounds when we listen critically.    

I beleive the height image is created primarily by the height of the mids and tweeters, as well as their interaction with specific room surfaces (the floor and the ceiling)

While I have not done a lot of testing in this area I would say that a carpeted/highly dampened floor would have a "higher" image than a wood or reflective floor.  As well I would suggest that a low ceiling would also "raise" the image, while a higher ceiling would lessen that effect.

So image height, would have to do with driver height, and floor ceiling interactions and the final variable would be seated listening height in relations to these. (Just my opinions)

When speakers are spread too far apart, it can cause a lack of a strong middle image, which screws up layering.

I might take issue with this with certain set ups and speakers.  Again I use my RM40s currently over 13' apart (ouside edge to outside edge) and I sit 9 feet from the midline between the two speakers and about 11 from the speaker face itself.

I have a clearly defined and on some recordings "chisled" center image and lushly filled soundstage on recordings that have that type of fill.  My front to back depth and "layering" is remarkable.  Obviously we always look for possible improvements (Lord knows what we would do if we couldn't extract any greater steps to the "absolute")

I think with more dispersant speakers, the loss of "image lock", depth and texture can be lost at wider spacings, since the greater dispersion has a tendency to "well... disperse" and be "washed out" or de-intensified by room interaction.

So, I sit about 16 feet from the front wall, and the speakers are about 8 feet from the front wall. There is a 71" big screen, two equipment racks, amps and subwoofers that make up a wall about 2' deep along the front. So in fact the speakers are out about 6' from these components.

Your RPTV and Equip Racks sound a lot like mine.  Some might say that they are good diffusers, but I don't think so.  You might try my earlier suggestion of picking up four 48"x24"x3" panels of Acoustic Foam (wedges are best for this) and drape 2 over the RPTV and the other two over each equipment rack.

I also have 3 more on the front wall (behind the speakers) placed rather high to disable the rear waves, that would hit the front wall and bounce to the ceiling and back out again.

I just use a couple 5# weights to secure the foam to the top of the center speaker and just let them hang down in front of the screen.

Same for the front of the equipment racks (infrared remotes usually will not go through these)

and I use "very long" super skinny tacks to mount the wall foam.

All of this comes down in 45 seconds and into the closet if need be (like when my Playboy Playmate client comes by guys I could tell you stories that even I don't beleive...lucky me... )

For HT it isn't needed since a reverberant sound feild and reflected sound aren't as destructive to foley. (in fact they might even enhance)

I have had some nOhr mini-9s in that position and with this treatment and placement the were quite impressive.