[opnly bafld]

Some have even called the B200 and Fostex FF/FE drivers mid/tweeters rather than "full range". 

Obviously these "some" have never heard the B200 in a box.

Lin

[JohninCR]

KM,

I've not heard the F120A.  My F200A drivers are in mass loaded transmission lines (search Bob Brines to see an image of them as these are the original FTA-2000s), but some prefer them in bass reflex or even open baffles.  Several find them "dark" compared to Visaton B200 or "typical" Fostex drivers.  (And frankly many extended range drivers.)

I have a pair of F120A's and quite a few other Fostex full rangers along with Visaton B200s.  I can understand why those accustomed to other full rangers would call F120's or F200's "dark", but in reality the difference is that the F series response is smooth and well balanced.  Uptilted and/or saw toothed response gets old.

BTW, John, have you tried the F120A's in the Frugels?
                                                               Don

Hi Don,

No I haven't yet.  I've been too lazy to make some adapters, which are needed because I counter sunk my 108's on my Frugels.  I think it will work though, since I allowed for such changes in the CC volume.  The 120 isn't ideally suited for it due to the mid Q.  I really want to give them a go in my dipole waveguides.

John

[JLM]

Lin,

Some of those some, based their opinions on the stated T/S parameters for the B200.  I must admit to having never heard a B200, but I live in the audio hinderland of Michigan.  I did consider it hard before going with the Fostex F200A drivers.


My experience with the single driver fan club is that many (most?) have "conditioned" themselves accept lack of bass as normal.  For instance, the one time I hauled my FTA-2000s out for an audiofest resulted in most listeners catching flies (slack jawed) by the depth/strength of bass that was in the music they had listened to for years.  (And unfortunately that was without BSC and use of flea amps in a large room.)  Some of this is due to the "little girl playing acoustic guitar" (as Ed S. described it) musical genre that many single driver fans gravitate towards, which is served well by weak bass designs.  BTW, I enjoy listening to little girls sometimes too.   

[panomaniac]

No one has yet mentioned the Diatone PM610. I have not heard these drivers myself, but have read the raves.

A friend of mine here has 2 sets, new in box. (I think it's the PM610) .  He says it the best midrange he's ever heard.  "Only" goes from aboutt 80Hz to 14Khz.  We will be trying them soon with a 15" driver to help the low end.  I'll let you know how they sound.

[planet10]

Obviously these "some" have never heard the B200 in a box.

As well, most of the "wishing for some help on the top" goes away when phase plugs are added.

But it is true that there is no such thing as a true full range speaker... but 40 to 16k isn't bad.

dave

[planet10]

A friend of mine here has 2 sets, new in box. (I think it's the PM610)

Is that really 5 as in rolled over 1 of the 3rd pair and wrecked it?

dave

[JLM]

Dave,

You wrote, "But it is true that there is no such thing as a true full range speaker...".

For me, part of the single driver premise is understanding that the marketing hype of "needing" 20 - 20,000 Hz is just that, hype.  OTOH many have given up on deep bass due to the types of music they prefer or lack of available power from the flea amps that many single driver fans gravitate towards.

IME, 30 - 15,000 Hz is adequate for music and therefore my Fostex F200A in MLTL are full range single driver speakers.  In fact, Fostex rates Fs of the raw driver at 30 Hz and it goes all the way to 20,000 Hz.

[planet10]

For me, part of the single driver premise is understanding that the marketing hype of "needing" 20 - 20,000 Hz is just that, hype.  OTOH many have given up on deep bass due to the types of music they prefer or lack of available power from the flea amps that many single driver fans gravitate towards.

IME, 30 - 15,000 Hz is adequate for music and therefore my Fostex F200A in MLTL are full range single driver speakers.  In fact, Fostex rates Fs of the raw driver at 30 Hz and it goes all the way to 20,000 Hz.

I couldn't agree more... most commercial speakers -- eben the big buck ones don't hit 30 Hz... i consider 40 sufficient, and am quite happy with Fonkens that reach into the high 50s, and many people are happy with less (ie how many satisfied EdHorn users are out there with 80-15k as the bandwidth...

dave

[doug s.]

For me, part of the single driver premise is understanding that the marketing hype of "needing" 20 - 20,000 Hz is just that, hype.  OTOH many have given up on deep bass due to the types of music they prefer or lack of available power from the flea amps that many single driver fans gravitate towards.

IME, 30 - 15,000 Hz is adequate for music and therefore my Fostex F200A in MLTL are full range single driver speakers.  In fact, Fostex rates Fs of the raw driver at 30 Hz and it goes all the way to 20,000 Hz.

I couldn't agree more... most commercial speakers -- eben the big buck ones don't hit 30 Hz... i consider 40 sufficient, and am quite happy with Fonkens that reach into the high 50s, and many people are happy with less (ie how many satisfied EdHorn users are out there with 80-15k as the bandwidth...

dave

i agree also - but - not cuz i do not need extended frequency response!     even with "commercial big-bucks" speakers, i still will run an active outboard stereo subwoofer system.   

and, i soon hope to set up a system w/a pair of fostex fe103's per channel handling the majority of the frequency band.  for the high end, i will cross over to a pair of tad ribbon supertweeters.  everything will be dsp'd, eq'd, & crossed over w/a deqx.  the fe103's are rigged up in tiny ported boxes originally meant for pioneer drivers in a mini-system.  i am thinking ~100hz for the low pass to the subs & ~12khz for the high pass to the supertweets.  any suggestions as to whether or not these are good x-over walues?

and dave, a specific question for you - do you think your bullet-plug upgrades for the fe103's are worthwhile, even when i will be using the deqx, which measures & corrects both speaker & room?

thanks,

doug s.

[JoshK]

dave can correct me if I am wrong, but bullet plugs, or phase plugs usually help disperse resonance (standing waves) that build up between the pole piece and the voice coil.  So they are useful in most drivers, regardless of correction placed on them after-the-fact.  EQ/dsp correction is better used judisciouscly after the design is implemented properly to begin with, imho.

[planet10]

and, i soon hope to set up a system w/a pair of fostex fe103's per channel handling the majority of the frequency band.  for the high end, i will cross over to a pair of tad ribbon supertweeters.  everything will be dsp'd, eq'd, & crossed over w/a deqx.  the fe103's are rigged up in tiny ported boxes originally meant for pioneer drivers in a mini-system.  i am thinking ~100hz for the low pass to the subs & ~12khz for the high pass to the supertweets.  any suggestions as to whether or not these are good x-over walues?

and dave, a specific question for you - do you think your bullet-plug upgrades for the fe103's are worthwhile, even when i will be using the deqx, which measures & corrects both speaker & room?

If i were you i would consider the following:

1/ make the midrange box aperiodic. (with the level of investment you are putting into this sytem, what quality level are these "found" boxes
2/ play with XOs up to 200 Hz
3/ top XO as low as 7 k
4/ the FE103 benefts from at least a few mods, and gets way better if you go whole-hog.
5/ for not much more the FE127 is a better driver for this job.

As to phase plugs, i would heartily recommend them on the older 103/108s. Our experiments on the lastest gen whizzerless drivers is at this point inconclusive. In theory they should help, but listening tests have not shifted us one way or the other. EnABL makes way more difference (the new gen of 103/126/127/108 etc are of a completely revised design, what came before has heritage going back 40 years (ie prev gen 103 or 108 sigma and a 40 year old FE103A are significantly similar -- a good set of FE103A being the better driver IMO, but the new ones are completely different beasts).

dave

dave

[planet10]

dave can correct me if I am wrong, but bullet plugs, or phase plugs usually help disperse resonance (standing waves) that build up between the pole piece and the voice coil.  So they are useful in most drivers, regardless of correction placed on them after-the-fact.  EQ/dsp correction is better used judisciouscly after the design is implemented properly to begin with, imho.

In theory yes. As to any feedback (ie DSP) correcting a problem at the source to get as linear a system as possible before correction is important and just good engineering. It is nice to see guys like you blazing a trail... i look forward to digital eq/filters/XOs that run at an adequate sampling rate (i guess i should ask where the DEQX is now wrt to this?)

dave

[Russell Dawkins]

dave can correct me if I am wrong, but bullet plugs, or phase plugs usually help disperse resonance (standing waves) that build up between the pole piece and the voice coil. 

I thought "phase plugs" mainly looked cool and did away with the nasty sounds coming from the dust cap. I can't visualize how standing waves would be set up between voice coil and pole piece. Are we not talking about a distance of much less than a millimeter here? If so, any standing waves would have to be up in the hundreds of thousands of Hertz.

[planet10]

]
I thought "phase plugs" mainly looked cool and did away with the nasty sounds coming from the dust cap. I can't visualize how standing waves would be set up between voice coil and pole piece. Are we not talking about a distance of much less than a millimeter here? If so, any standing waves would have to be up in the hundreds of thousands of Hertz.

He meant in the space inside the voice coil between the pole piece and the dustcap. There is a characteristic oil can resonance here.

dave

[doug s.]

and, i soon hope to set up a system w/a pair of fostex fe103's per channel handling the majority of the frequency band.  for the high end, i will cross over to a pair of tad ribbon supertweeters.  everything will be dsp'd, eq'd, & crossed over w/a deqx.  the fe103's are rigged up in tiny ported boxes originally meant for pioneer drivers in a mini-system.  i am thinking ~100hz for the low pass to the subs & ~12khz for the high pass to the supertweets.  any suggestions as to whether or not these are good x-over walues?

and dave, a specific question for you - do you think your bullet-plug upgrades for the fe103's are worthwhile, even when i will be using the deqx, which measures & corrects both speaker & room?

If i were you i would consider the following:

1/ make the midrange box aperiodic. (with the level of investment you are putting into this sytem, what quality level are these "found" boxes
2/ play with XOs up to 200 Hz
3/ top XO as low as 7 k
4/ the FE103 benefts from at least a few mods, and gets way better if you go whole-hog.
5/ for not much more the FE127 is a better driver for this job.

As to phase plugs, i would heartily recommend them on the older 103/108s. Our experiments on the lastest gen whizzerless drivers is at this point inconclusive. In theory they should help, but listening tests have not shifted us one way or the other. EnABL makes way more difference (the new gen of 103/126/127/108 etc are of a completely revised design, what came before has heritage going back 40 years (ie prev gen 103 or 108 sigma and a 40 year old FE103A are significantly similar -- a good set of FE103A being the better driver IMO, but the new ones are completely different beasts).

dave

dave

hi dave,

the "level of investment" i am putting into this system is actually quite cheap - i am out $200 for the four drivers which were supplied in the enclosures.  i awreddy have everything else.  i am trying to see how good i can get it on the cheap.  even four phase plugs is a big cost, when considered in that context - it increases my inwestment 25%!  can you pm me for the best price for four of these, shipped to a biz address in maryland?     and, (or?), would it be worthwhile adding the enable-dots?  other mods, that i could do myself, or send in to you for them?  or just chuck the whole thing, & re-sell these as-is?

see pic of the speakers/cabinets below, & tell me if you think i will get passable results, w/active dsp deqx crossover:



regards,

doug s.

[planet10]

Those look like nice mid 70s FE103. You do have some surround doping bleed, and i'd consider $200 a bit pricey, but they are excellent. Is the surround still stuck down?

I'll have to see what i can scare up for plugs with these, we were thinking of transitioning FE103 to the longer plugs for FE126/127/FE108eS so i am very short on stock. Every driver is well worth EnABLing... in a case like this it would be most cost effective to diy it (lots of help available -- and once you get a pair of drivers under your belt there will be no stopping you.

Here is a set of Alnico ones similar to yours -- i'm having to adapt an experimental pair of plugs to prepare them to head off to Italy.



dave

[jrebman]

Doug,

Here's the link to a thread on diyaudio that tells you everything you'd ever want to know about EnABL, and then some:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100399&highlight=EnABL

It's a bit daunting at over 1000 posts, but there's a lot you can quickly skim over.

I spoke with Bud P. this morning and I'm shipping him my F120As for EnABLing.  I am probably a bit crazy for doing this, but if I don't try, I'll never know and since curiosity and creativity are a higher priority than absolute sanity, why not?

The only thing that really concerns me is where it is going to lead me to next...  Oh, my head hurts just thinking about that.

I heard the EnABLed Hemp Acoustics FR-8s at RMAF, and even in that short exposure to them, I could hear that there was something fundamentally different about them from any other full range driver I've heard to date.

-- Jim

[doug s.]

thanks, dave, for the foto, & your help.  so, my cabinet will be ok, if not perfect?

the surrounds can be lifted up a bit, from the cone edge.  any recommendation as to what type of glue i should use, or?  and, recommendation as to what i should use to paint on the dots?  and, how many at the center of the cone?  it's easy to count the dots at the outside...

lemme know about getting me four phase plugs...

thanks,

doug s.

Those look like nice mid 70s FE103. You do have some surround doping bleed, and i'd consider $200 a bit pricey, but they are excellent. Is the surround still stuck down?

I'll have to see what i can scare up for plugs with these, we were thinking of transitioning FE103 to the longer plugs for FE126/127/FE108eS so i am very short on stock. Every driver is well worth EnABLing... in a case like this it would be most cost effective to diy it (lots of help available -- and once you get a pair of drivers under your belt there will be no stopping you.

Here is a set of Alnico ones similar to yours -- i'm having to adapt an experimental pair of plugs to prepare them to head off to Italy.



dave

[doug s.]

jim, thanks for the link, i will check it out..

doug s.

Doug,

Here's the link to a thread on diyaudio that tells you everything you'd ever want to know about EnABL, and then some:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100399&highlight=EnABL

It's a bit daunting at over 1000 posts, but there's a lot you can quickly skim over.

I spoke with Bud P. this morning and I'm shipping him my F120As for EnABLing.  I am probably a bit crazy for doing this, but if I don't try, I'll never know and since curiosity and creativity are a higher priority than absolute sanity, why not?

The only thing that really concerns me is where it is going to lead me to next...  Oh, my head hurts just thinking about that.

I heard the EnABLed Hemp Acoustics FR-8s at RMAF, and even in that short exposure to them, I could hear that there was something fundamentally different about them from any other full range driver I've heard to date.

-- Jim

[JoshK]

]
I thought "phase plugs" mainly looked cool and did away with the nasty sounds coming from the dust cap. I can't visualize how standing waves would be set up between voice coil and pole piece. Are we not talking about a distance of much less than a millimeter here? If so, any standing waves would have to be up in the hundreds of thousands of Hertz.

He meant in the space inside the voice coil between the pole piece and the dustcap. There is a characteristic oil can resonance here.

dave

Yes that is what I meant...