Can/should anything be done to change this room response?

satfrat · « **Reply #80 on:** 3 Nov 2007, 11:22 am »

What I don't understand is how GIF & Realtraps can continue to downplay inteference of multiple reflected sound from the wall corners, ceiling corners, wall/ceiling surfaces where sound waves are being the most disorted by saying that a single wall reflection point is a rooms biggest obstacle to be solved by ONLY your product? That to me doesn't make any sense. I would much rather have a product that'll combat mulitple reflection points long before a product that'll only deal with a singular reflection point. Every room treatment product in this thread has it's place as far as I'm concerned but there's some BS that doesn't.

And btw, this little 2 on 1 is getting a waaay old too.

My $.02 to all you sirs,
Robin

PS: JohnR beat me too it.

zybar · « **Reply #81 on:** 3 Nov 2007, 11:41 am »

Quote from: satfrat on 3 Nov 2007, 11:22 am

What I don't understand is how GIF & Realtraps can continue to downplay inteference of multiple reflected sound from the wall corners, ceiling corners, wall/ceiling surfaces where sound waves are being the most disorted by saying that a single wall reflection point is a rooms biggest obstacle to be solved by ONLY your product? That to me doesn't make any sense. I would much rather have a product that'll combat mulitple reflection points long before a product that'll only deal with a singular reflection point. Every room treatment product in this thread has it's place as far as I'm concerned but there's some BS that doesn't.

And btw, this little 2 on 1 is getting a waaay old too.

My $.02 to all you sirs,
Robin

PS: JohnR beat me too it.

Robin,

I don't think Glenn and Ethan are doing what you claim.

What they are doing, is asking Nathan for some scientific data to back up his claims.

I think this is a valid ask given that Glenn and Ethan both have third party measurements to back up their claims AND because Nathan is claiming to do something nobody else is doing.

I have measured Nathan's Adapt products in my room and found them to have a no measureable or sonic impact. I tried two of his newest corners and two of his rectangles. While I "may" have had issues with the placement of the corners due to crown molding, I didn't have any mounting issues with the rectangles. When I measured Ethan's products, a single panel or Tri-Corner has shown to produce measureable results.

When I ran measurements I used either a TacT 2.2x or Velodyne SMS-1 (for 200Hz and below only).

George

satfrat · « **Reply #82 on:** 3 Nov 2007, 11:50 am »

Well you surely know better than I sir, all I have to go by is my common sense and there's no gaging that either.

Robin

JohnR · « **Reply #83 on:** 3 Nov 2007, 11:59 am »

Past experience has shown that there is no value to having vendors battle out their own version of what is or is not "scientific" or "truthful" (which, to many people, amounts to the same thing) on the open (and non-commercial) forum.

There are plenty of mechanisms available here for advertising, including Industry Ads and Industry Talk. George and others, please don't make me enforce the already existing rules about this. Your own experience as a non-committed person is of course, completely valid.

Glenn K · « **Reply #84 on:** 3 Nov 2007, 01:45 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 3 Nov 2007, 11:19 am

In general, it's better if Industry Participants do not take shots at each other in the open forum.

Things are already tenuous enough with the commercial activity going on in this supposedly non-commercial circle.

Thanks

JohnR

John,
If you feel as though I am taking shots at Nathan then I would gladly stop as I truly am not but only trying to get a handle on what he is claiming. As I do think that if you put the 8th Nerve in your room (I assume it has some kind of rigid fiberglass or mineral wool) it would do something, but I just don't see how it could work the way Nathan is claiming. I think it is absorbing like a panel, but as I have no idea how they are made I am kind of taking a wild guess (thus why I am asking

). Hey if he can point me to the technical writing then I am all ears.

Edit: Actually I really am not even talking about his products but just the effects in the room.

Glenn

samplesj · « **Reply #85 on:** 5 Nov 2007, 01:56 pm »

Quote from: satfrat on 3 Nov 2007, 11:22 am

What I don't understand is how GIF & Realtraps can continue to downplay inteference of multiple reflected sound from the wall corners, ceiling corners, wall/ceiling surfaces where sound waves are being the most disorted by saying that a single wall reflection point is a rooms biggest obstacle to be solved by ONLY your product? That to me doesn't make any sense. I would much rather have a product that'll combat mulitple reflection points long before a product that'll only deal with a singular reflection point. Every room treatment product in this thread has it's place as far as I'm concerned but there's some BS that doesn't.

What are you reading??? This is like 100% opposite what I see.

Did you look at each vendor's site?
Neither GIK or Realtraps recommends ONLY treating the first reflection point. BOTH of them do in fact recommend treating all wall-wall & wall-ceiling joints. Ethan has long recommended as MUCH treatment as possible. In fact the RealTraps site does now have a specific corner piece so you don't have to use a full size piece awkwardly straddling the corner. 8th Nerve is the company that says just treating the single corners will fix the room.

Both GIK and RealTraps can point to specific parts of Everest's book to show how/why their traps work. Also both vendors have published independent lab test results. 8th Nerve has instead said that the science from the current literature isn't right and his can't be explained by it. I'm sorry but when someone says that the science is wrong and DOESN'T provide VERIFIABLE (not just charts they produced) proof then their claim is highly suspicious.

I've not seen where either GIK or RealTraps have said their product is the only one to use. While both do have advantages over just plain rigid fiberglass I'm sure either would still be posting if we said we were going to DIY the room instead. Both GIK and RealTraps have been good to help out everyone EVEN the DIYers. I do have RealTraps in my HT system, but the 2 channel that was built after was DIY and I got a lot of tips from both companies past postings.

samplesj · « **Reply #86 on:** 5 Nov 2007, 02:05 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 3 Nov 2007, 11:59 am

Past experience has shown that there is no value to having vendors battle out their own version of what is or is not "scientific" or "truthful" (which, to many people, amounts to the same thing) on the open (and non-commercial) forum.

There are plenty of mechanisms available here for advertising, including Industry Ads and Industry Talk. George and others, please don't make me enforce the already existing rules about this. Your own experience as a non-committed person is of course, completely valid.

Is it because RealTraps/GIK are questioning how the 8th Nerve products work? Or is it because anyone is questioning how the 8th Nerve products work? If it were me posting the questioning of the charts would it be different than if it were Ethan and Glenn?

In other words is it because the vendors need to be held to a higher standard because they have a vested interest (which is totally cool

)? If that is the case then if others of us normal users wanted this discussion to continue then THEY could start a new thread and as long as Ethan/Glenn weren't posting on the thread it would it be breaking any rules?

JohnR · « **Reply #87 on:** 5 Nov 2007, 02:42 pm »

I think I already answered your question (and frankly, I think you know it). Vendors obviously have a vested interest. It's not about being held to a higher standard, it's simply about recognizing that for what it is and the limitations inherent in a forum (in the broader sense of the word) that has no formal structure for or interest in adjudication other than (reasonably presented) consumer/enduser reports.

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #88 on:** 5 Nov 2007, 03:16 pm »

Quote from: samplesj on 5 Nov 2007, 01:56 pm

I'm sure either would still be posting if we said we were going to DIY the room instead.

Indeed. I've been talking up the importance of bass traps and other acoustic treatment since the 1970s. I've been actively helping people on the Internet since before there even was an Internet, when the main gathering place for audio folks was the MIDI & Music forum on CompuServe where I was a moderator.

I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade, but I do take exception to the claim "science doesn't know how to measure what our products do." And it's not only acoustic products. I object when other vendors make those claims (vinyl "demagnetizers" and clever clocks etc), and even when audiophiles say such things. I object to pseudoscience in audio even when it puts me at professional risk by angering potential customers who believe in magical aspects of audio.

--Ethan

samplesj · « **Reply #89 on:** 5 Nov 2007, 03:42 pm »

I am honestly and geniunely interested in understanding how the 8th Nerve stuff works. I'm not tied to any one vendor, I've got stuff from RealTraps, RPG, and even DIY panels. I posted the question just to clarify that if this thread gets shut down then in fact me or someone else can ask that same question without breaking any of the rules. I realize this is the open non-commercial forums, but no one can expect an something viewed as a challenge to be allowed in the vendors private forum. This is something I've been trying to figure out for quite some time so when I saw this thread it caught my eye.

I'd love to be able to use something small like that in some of the "extra" systems. In the primary 2 channel and HT systems treatment is a given, but for the shared rooms stuff like the den, game room, or even my son's bedroom its a no-no. For them not only would I have a to deal with WAF on something big, but I don't even want something big there. I'm even within 5-6 hours so the shipping shouldn't be bad at all. Even for the 2 channel room I'd love to get rid of the panels if I could still get the benefits.

Every time Nathan announces a sale I look at old reviews and ponder it, but I never find anything concrete enough to feel good about it. Even to me it doesn't look like they have the mass required to really deal with bass. I have no problem with it not being in the current literature since we do learn more about the world as time goes on, but you have to provide documentation/independant testing if you make that claim. "It works because it works" isn't good enough here. Even a satisfaction policy isn't enough because room treatment isn't like auditioning a cable that shouldn't make a difference either (but I think can), because it costs WAY more to ship and is much more work installing/removing.

8thnerve · « **Reply #90 on:** 6 Nov 2007, 04:13 pm »

Fascinating. This is a great example of how established science and experiential results butt heads at the beginning of the discovery of a new phenomenon. Some of you have asked for technical documentation to prove that this effect exists, but there isn't any, because I haven't written any. Why? Because I have to pay rent and put food on the table for me and my daughter. I would love to be able to spend the time researching and documenting this phenomenon, and if any of you would like to fund this research, know of any grants, or want to hire me to do this research I would be happy to entertain your proposals. Until then, I will continue to do my best to simultaneously explore this acoustic behavior and produce products that can address it and help to pay the bills.

And George, I'm sorry you didn't see results below 200Hz with the small amount of products you tested. I wish you had observed the results in the space between 200Hz and 20,000Khz where even more improvements can be found. I understand your omission however, other acoustic products have very limited positive effects at these frequencies. You're the only customer who hasn't been very pleased, and if I remember correctly, you did say that they made some positive difference, but not enough to justify the expense and visual impact. Again, I'm truly sorry you didn't have a better experience.

I have nothing against Glenn, Ethan and Brian. They are good guys that are just defending what they know. You guys do a great job here. I'm sorry I am unable to sate your curiosity at this time with the research that you (and I) desire. Perhaps some time soon we will. Until then, remember that no truly great idea was ever accepted at face value, and most brought into question the prevailing scientific understanding of the day.

My best to you,
Nathan

Glenn K · « **Reply #91 on:** 7 Nov 2007, 05:23 pm »

Nathan,
I am not aware of any grants that fund companies to do research for them, but if you find one, please let me know. We spend a great deal of money on our R&D every year, so it would be great to get the government to fund that one for us.

What I would really recommend is starting with doing just some technical writing on your theory's and try to get other acoustic people to go along with it. Actually testing is about $1000, so really that is not all that much and may help you prove your theory's.

Glenn

laserman · « **Reply #92 on:** 8 Nov 2007, 09:07 pm »

Hey, any chance we can get this back on track to what the OP, Big Red Machine - remember him folks, was asking?

Greetings Pete,

I saw you put up your old room treatments up for sale, so how about letting us sideline observers know how the upgrade/change to the room is going.

Thank you in advance, peace and later,
Lou

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #93 on:** 21 Nov 2007, 03:00 pm »

Here's a new response curve with pretty much most of the nulls and peaks as before. Room sounds better and feels twice as large because I now have about 4 feet behind me to the wall. And the big rack is gone too.

Should I have diffusion?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #94 on:** 21 Nov 2007, 03:20 pm »

Hey Pete,

I haven't read through this whole thread yet so forgive me if I missed it, but it sounded like you were shooting both speakers together and at the same time, and with the same signal. Is this the case?

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #95 on:** 21 Nov 2007, 07:28 pm »

Yes. Should I do left and right channels separately?

satfrat · « **Reply #96 on:** 21 Nov 2007, 07:32 pm »

How about some new pictures of that room of yours and in particular some of your diy room treatment projects that have kept you so silent?

Cheers,
Robin

Danny Richie · « **Reply #97 on:** 21 Nov 2007, 07:36 pm »

Well there is your problem right there (or one of them any way).

If you shoot them together using the same signal then you'll get gain in some areas (as both speakers are coupling and doubling output) and in other areas you'll get dips form cancellation (comb filtering effects).

You might find that if you move your mic over 6" or a foot you might get a peak where there once was a dip and dip where there once was a peak.

Do each speaker separately and then you'll know what you really have.

MaxCast · « **Reply #98 on:** 21 Nov 2007, 08:03 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 21 Nov 2007, 07:36 pm

Well there is your problem right there (or one of them any way).

If you shoot them together using the same signal then you'll get gain in some areas (as both speakers are coupling and doubling output) and in other areas you'll get dips form cancellation (comb filtering effects).

You might find that if you move your mic over 6" or a foot you might get a peak where there once was a dip and dip where there once was a peak.

Do each speaker separately and then you'll know what you really have.

Hi Danny,
We listen with both speakers so wouldn't it make sense to play both speakers and try to correct for flattest response with position and room treatment?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #99 on:** 21 Nov 2007, 09:21 pm »

Quote

Hi Danny,
We listen with both speakers so wouldn't it make sense to play both speakers and try to correct for flattest response with position and room treatment?

Yea but we listen in stereo. Left and right speakers don't get the same signal. If they did then we'd be listening in mono. A mono signal (like the test signal) played on two speakers will cancel each other out or couple to give you twice the output level depending on distance and wavelength.

You have to shoot them individually or you won't know what you have.