[Steve]

My apologies Woodsyi if I offended you. I was merely responding to Dougs comments on page 5. That was an excellent point about tuning your system to the Mod.

---------
Doug S.

"symantically, i understand your definition.  what i am hypothesizing, (as i really don't know for sure; i don't think anyone really knows for sure), is that, when it comes to redbook cd playback, the more accurate the system, the less musical sound you will have.  i am saying that, mebbe, redbook is sterile."

I can not figure out how you equate accuracy to sterility. I would assume you believe live events are emotional. As I mentioned before, I have two players that have lots of emotion, and the tonal quality is unbelieveable. A clarinet sounds like a clarinet, so I do not understand why that is sterile to you?

"i would submit that it makes music because it is not accurate.  your corrections made it more musical, but not accurate; otherwise it would have become sterile.    "

I don't understand that, see above. If the instrument sounds super accurate, like in one's room, why would the player be sterile? What is accurate sounding about a clarinet not sounding like a clarinet? Do you see where your logic falls apart?

"i understand it's your biz, & you need to do what you feel you should do, to accommodate your customers.  whether or not you lose some customers & end up gaining more customers, doesn't matter - you have to do what's right for you.  if you cannot make a remote & keep the sonics the same, that's ok - i completely respect your choice.  it doesn't mean that some of us can't be disappointed, tho, does it?    "

I am sorry you are disappointed. However, since you love the Mod, why not purchase it?

"that's woodsyi's take.  my take is that woodsyi's comments hold for your sas & for his modwright preamp.  both were outstanding in woodsyi's rig, imo., & it was nit-picking, for me, to choose between these two.  the other two - the bbb & the candela - i would not say comparing either of them to the each other, or to the first two is nitpicking.  i enjoyed the candela, tho i found its presentation a lot warmer, less neutral, less detailed.  i found the bbb left me cold, even tho i appreciated the blacker background & the detail."

I respect your decision there Doug. I just wanted to bring out more information for making informative decisions. I think too many take auditions too seriously. (See my previous post.)

"i agree, to a point.  as you have said, other components in a complete system can change things.  and, what you hear from one component in one system may not translate to what that component may sound like in another system.  but, there really is no other way i know to decide if you may like something in your system, other than to try it.  and, hearing stuff in other systems gives you a clue as to what you might wanna hear in your own system."

Yes, it does give one some sense. For instance about two years ago, the 10A was auditioned vs another brand. The differences were so stark, there was little doubt. I guess it depends on how great those differences are. I know for a fact, that the 11A is the standard to which others will be judged. I am the only one that uses multiple listening methods for checking for transparency, musicality, and accuracy. No one else does this to my knowledge. Others simply "voice" their components.

Lastly, players are one of the toughest components to get right. And speakers are all over the place; and "voicing" depends on the system quality. I think one needs a foundation of some sort in their system.

"regards,

doug s."

Regards as well.
Steve
[/quote]

[woodsyi]

No offense taken.  I am a sensitive soul but I roll with things pretty good.  As for your discussion with doug s. on neutrality, accuracy and sterility, I can't add much.  There are some euphemistic connotations that tends to conjure negative feelings with the term accuracy but I think accurate is good and accurate doesn't have to mean sterile.   For me, I like accuracy only to the extent that it doesn't mess with harmonic texture in tones  that makes my skin tingle.  It really is a visceral feeling that I want from my music and I don't want my tones messed with.  Case in point is that my favorite diva Ileana Cotrubas has a brittle upper register and she can sound harsh on some "accurate" systems.  I don't want any of that.  I want her to remain seductively "husky" and vulnerable.    I am not saying 11A is like that.  I am just explaining what is important to me.

[Steve]

No offense taken.  I am a sensitive soul but I roll with things pretty good.  As for your discussion with doug s. on neutrality, accuracy and sterility, I can't add much.  There are some euphemistic connotations that tends to conjure negative feelings with the term accuracy but I think accurate is good and accurate doesn't have to mean sterile.   For me, I like accuracy only to the extent that it doesn't mess with harmonic texture in tones  that makes my skin tingle.  It really is a visceral feeling that I want from my music and I don't want my tones messed with.  Case in point is that my favorite diva Ileana Cotrubas has a brittle upper register and she can sound harsh on some "accurate" systems.  I don't want any of that.  I want her to remain seductively "husky" and vulnerable.    I am not saying 11A is like that.  I am just explaining what is important to me.

Hi Woodsyi,

     We think alike in that I like the tonal texture, my skin to tingle as well. The emotions should be there. For me, live music is lush, natural and emotional.

I agree Woodsyi, 'accuracy' has a negative connotation, but I don't think it should be. For me, accurate/emotion is accurate/emotion. I think we think alike.

In general terms, some teach that neutral/accurate is sterile.

The definitions have been changed, mainly for marketing reasons. SS marketing is one big reason. Some tube amps/preamps manufacturers also use this kind of marketing.

Just a question Woodsyi. Do you happen to use CD treatment like Auric Illuminator? It does help relax the sound, which may help, at least some, solve the brittle problem with Ileana's voice. Just a thought.

Take care Woodsyi.

[woodsyi]

No,  I don't use any treatment.  All the music we listened to were off my NAS via a modded Squeezebox 2.  I am not sure if Auric Illuminater would result in ripping the bits more accurately or not.  I am thinking not.  Most of the music were ripped for me by Donnie W. and I believe he used dBpoweramp for ripping.  I am thinking they are bit perfect. 

I will play with vinyl to see if how that works and post impressions later.

[miklorsmith]

Nice work guys!  You had some very cool stuff to play with.  I used to own the Modwright which I thought was fantastic, and this was before tube rectification and all the other cool stuff Dan's come up with since then.

Steve - how do you propose the 11A will become the standard by which others are judged?  I don't believe there is a current holder of that title, so this would seem to be an unprecedented category.  Side-by-side comparisons would probably be needed but you say you don't hold much stock in listening auditions, so how exactly is this going to work?

[John Chapman]

Hello!

Bent Audio John here. First - thanks guys for trying out the unit. Yee-ikes though - it was not expected to have the unit 'out there' like this and compared to other production stuff. It was a box I made up for Wayne just as an experiment to combine the remote stuff on hand here with the Bruson buffer. Wayne has already hinted that when it was here at my shop I was not so happy with the result - both listenning and measured performance. So much so that I was convinced something was 'wrong' with the hook-up! I had kept Wayne waiting too long for it so I fired it off to him. Since that time we have had a reply from burson that the buffer is not so happy when fed from a highish impedance - like it is being fed in the box you had. Also the power supply was a bit of a mystery - although since then Wayne had replaced a transformer so the power feed to the buson power supply board should be close to spec now - that may have made a fair change to the sonics.

That the unit would be found very 'Accurate' is not too surprising in one way at least - the unit uses the (famous for accuracy with a 'Capital A') vishay resistors. These have a very accurate sound - and without some offsetting force in the system somewhere can easily come off as a bit ruthless. My personal preference is way the other side of center - I'd rather have the opposite tendency! Having said that I generally put that bias asside and many customers LOVE that very 'accurate' sound - when it is not there they complain of the sound loosing that clarity. I have sold a number of vishay based passives for instance and folks seem to generally like them very much. Talking on the phone with a customer you can usually get a sense if they will work out for folks. My feeling is that - like anything  - they won't always fit the system or the listenners preference.  I am starting to ramble so I had better stop!

Sufice it to say that the combination of the Vishay 's and the straight up sound of the burson seem to not be a good fit down there! That along with the nagging worry I have about the implementation lead me to ask that folks not view that box as the new offering from Bent Audio!

There is no hurry at all to get it back - feel free to play with it as long as you'd like to - then contact me and I'll send shipping details, etc. 

Thanks again to all - sounded like a fun day!


John


BTW -the ballance right left I think were likely active - can't honestly recall! Also the phase button was not active - as Wayne mentioned that was a leftover from using the same chassis in other applications!

[woodsyi]

John,
Thanks for chiming in.  I know I really pushed Wayne to get the unit out to me before it's ready for prime time.  I really had not thought about a passive preamp because I was very happy with my tubed preamps.  Then one day I pulled the trigger on a tubed crossover to replace my ss one.  I really liked the change in sound that I got from this switch.  Then I got to thinking I have too many tubes in the signal path and started to think about passive volume control.  As I told Wayne, I still think a passive preamp is the way to go with a tube crossover.  I want to get all the details of impedance matching, right amount of gain and heat dissipation worked out before I will throw the towel in.  I consider it a work in progress and I am glad to help in anyway with the feedbacks.  I also think the trannies Wayne put in haven't quite broken in either.  I am letting it run for while before trying different sources.  I had heard the Burson Buffer before with my SB2 and I liked the sound.  So there is definitely something going on with the Burson/TAP interface that is not happy.  But I am sure you guys can work it out. 

Cheers,

[Scottdazzle]

I hope it's not too late for one more cook in the kitchen. As Woodsyi pointed out, I did find the SAS to be the most accurate, and hence most desirable preamp sonically. I think it conveyed the music as close to the real thing as any preamp I have ever listened to. I agree with Doug that offering no remote is disappointing and a potential deal breaker. I don't want to get up and cross the room every time someone in the family or on the phone is calling. Call me lazy.

The Modwright is very pleasurable, but to my ears just the slightest bit euphonic compared to the SAS.  With a different source component I might reach a different conclusion.  The BBBB curiously sounded better the second time around. The Odyssey Candela was very warm by comparison - clearly a tube unit.  If we had been testing any other components (sources for instance) instead of preamps I think any of these would have satisfied me sonically. It will be interesting to try the BBBB again after the bugs are worked out. It's a great prototype.

The switch to vinyl late in the evening put all of this nitpicking in perspective. The vinyl sounded way more musical than any of the songs we listened to via the squeeze box. I don't know if that is because of some weakness in the hard drive/wireless source configuration or just that vinyl is still the best source. There was noticeably greater depth, dimensionality, and better harmonics. At home, I prefer vinyl to cd's, but haven't gotten on the squeeze box bandwagon yet.

I have a pet peeve about all of these preamps and that is the absence of a phono pre.  People who buy high end equipment still listen to and generally prefer vinyl.  I wish preamp manufacturers would routinely offer versions of their products with phono circuits. My preamp (Tube Audio Design TAD-150) may be a cut below these four, but it has phono inputs and a remote for which I am grateful every day.

Finally, great thanks to Rim & Robin for yet another great MAAC get together. The food, drink, and hospitality make these events enjoyable social events.  The music is great, but the setting and friendship make these gatherings an event.

[doug s.]

..."symantically, i understand your definition.  what i am hypothesizing, (as i really don't know for sure; i don't think anyone really knows for sure), is that, when it comes to redbook cd playback, the more accurate the system, the less musical sound you will have.  i am saying that, mebbe, redbook is sterile."

I can not for the life of me figure out how you equate accuracy to sterility. I would assume you have been to live events and they were emotional. Maybe not though. As I mentioned before, I have two players that have lots of emotion. And the tonal quality is unbelieveable. A clarinet sounds like a clarinet, so I do not understand why that is sterile to you?

"i would submit that it makes music because it is not accurate.  your corrections made it more musical, but not accurate; otherwise it would have become sterile.   Wink "

I don't understand that, see above. If the instrument sounds super accurate, like in one's room, why would it be sterile? What is accurate sounding about a clarinet not sounding like a clarinet? You see where your logic falls apart?...

steve, my logic does not fall apart at all - you still aren't grasping what i am saying, which is this:  redbook cd is a sterile medium.  PERIOD!!!  therefore, an accurate playback system with redbook cd will be, by definition, sterile.  if a clarinet is recorded to redbook cd, it is recorded inaccurately, & it will sound sterile, if played back on an accurate system.  (imo.)  if playback of a clarinet from redbook cd sounds like a real clarinet, it's not accurate, because it did not accurately play back the recording, it added &/or subtracted something. 

is what i am saying really that unclear?  is no one else besides steve understanding what it is i am talking about?  i am not trying to be rude or difficult, i just wanna know.   

re: the modwright, you ask why don't i buy it.  well, i would first have to audition it in my system, if i really were interested.  but, presently, my preamp in my system does everything i want, for me.  great dynamics, great detail, great soundstaging, great tonal neutrality, great attack & decay...  it has six inputs & two tape loops, things i like.  it has remote wolume control & also remote balance, even tho it's a true dual-mono preamp, w/separate wolume pots for each channel.  it's about the last component i am presently interested in replacing, in my system.  however, my active crossover, &/or room correction has always been something i have been interested.  hearing rim's system w/his new tubed crossover, yust made me that much more trigger-happy.  so, i broke down & purchased a used deqx pdc2.6.     i am really looking forward to hear what this 2-3 channel x-over & speaker/room eq dewice will do for my system.  i have yet to hear anyone who said it didn't improve their rig by at least a decent amount, if not a large amount...

doug s.

[Steve]

I don't mean to be difficult either Doug. Page 5 just rubbed me the wrong way.

"redbook cd is a sterile medium.  PERIOD!!! "

I am just trying to figure out how you came to this conclusion? What experiences, articles etc led you to believe this. I am truly interested.

Thanks Doug.

Hi Scott.

Thanks for your opinions. Much appreciated. Another thing I forgot to mention is that I do not have enough physical room to install a remote. I apologize for that, but I would have to find a much larger chassis and redesign the layout and board.

Same thing for the addition of a phono stage. Not enough room. I have had to employ another chassis for my test phono stage. I also might have a problem with heat build up as well. 6 additional tubes would be added plus another complete power supply, both filament and high voltage.

Wish I could be of more help Scott, but I don't think I can make the physical layout any simpler to install these extras
.
Thanks again for your comments.

ps. "Steve - how do you propose the 11A will become the standard by which others are judged?  I don't believe there is a current holder of that title, so this would seem to be an unprecedented category."

We have discussed this and I made myself perfectly clear a couple of weeks before this string. I do multi method listening/auditions which are much more stringent. That is why I feel mine is the best.

As far as a "standard", many reviewers have a favorite. I have not seen you promote more than one brand for nearly 3 years. Seems to me that you believe in a "standard as well" since you do not mention any better, just the one brand? If there were better than yours, you would have been mentioning them as well, right? 

"Side-by-side comparisons would probably be needed but you say you don't hold much stock in listening auditions, so how exactly is this going to work?"

As mentioned above, just a couple of weeks ago, you and I used 'half' a string discussing this. I made it very clear I do multi method listening/audition testing, which are more stringent than your simple auditions. So, yes I believe in auditions, but more strickly than you do.

[doug s.]

I don't mean to be difficult either Doug.

"redbook cd is a sterile medium.  PERIOD!!! "

I am just trying to figure out how you came to this conclusion? What experiences, articles etc led you to believe this. I am truly interested.

Thanks Doug.

two things lead me to this conclusion.  which is my opinion, in case there's any confusion about it.  and, i am the first to admit it's not wery scientific.

1st thing is everything i have read about all the engineering inwolwed with redbook cd over the past twenty-five years, both on the record & playback side; what has been discovered about it, what has been done to improve it, different technologies like sacd, 24/192 dvd-a, etc...  from a layperson's gut reaction-feeling: something yust isn't right.  redbook cd shoulda been 24/192 from the get-go - 16/44.1 yust isn't resolving enough, & everything since has been an attempt to fix it.  the result being that a ruthlessly revealing digital playback system will get you directly to the digital hash & etch that is the hallmark of redbook cd.

2nd thing is my ears.   

regards,

doug s.

[Steve]

I don't mean to be difficult either Doug.

"redbook cd is a sterile medium.  PERIOD!!! "

I am just trying to figure out how you came to this conclusion? What experiences, articles etc led you to believe this. I am truly interested.

Thanks Doug.

two things lead me to this conclusion.  which is my opinion, in case there's any confusion about it.  and, i am the first to admit it's not wery scientific.

1st thing is everything i have read about all the engineering inwolwed with redbook cd over the past twenty-five years, both on the record & playback side; what has been discovered about it, what has been done to improve it, different technologies like sacd, 24/192 dvd-a, etc...  from a layperson's gut reaction-feeling: something yust isn't right.  redbook cd shoulda been 24/192 from the get-go - 16/44.1 yust isn't resolving enough, & everything since has been an attempt to fix it.  the result being that a ruthlessly revealing digital playback system will get you directly to the digital hash & etch that is the hallmark of redbook cd.

2nd thing is my ears.   

regards,

doug s.

Hi Doug,

     I can understand your frustrations Doug. I have run into the CD players at the store and elsewhere and heard the same hash and garbage, some more and some less, but never the less present. I also think the resolution could be better, but the sterile problem is not necessarily due to 16 bits. As I mentioned, the old Rotel is actually too smooth.

     And the players I own, I have had to upgrade them from stock, they were lacking. What did surprise me was that the old 865bx was actually too smooth and smeared. That was a real switch from what I have heard from newer players I have heard. (There is one I am currently testing that holds promise.)

  And that leads me to another point. The modifications I made were only to the analog portion on the Rotel. I thought that was pretty interesting. In fact, the other player also needs upgrading to the analog portion. It seems like the analog portion is rather weak in players, but I cannot say what percentage.

All I can say is keep at it and audition as many players as possible Doug. 

Thanks for the info.

     

[TjMV3]

I really like what you guys are saying about the Odyssey Candela.  Your sound descriptions fit right in with what I want in terms of sound.

What tubes does Bunky have in that Candela,  the one at the shoot out?

How's the Odyssey Candela's noise floor?

Did anyone notice any transformer noise or hum? 

I would like to check this Candela out,  but I had a bad experience with a Tempest.  So I'm a bit reluctant to go that way, again.

[woodsyi]

PM Bunky.  According to Courtney, his daughter, "Daddy has way too many tube preamps."  Maybe you guys can work out a deal.  I think he is using SAS 10A as his reference preamp at this time. 

[Steve]

Hi Doug,

     May I ask one more question Doug? Is there any chance the ICs and/or speaker wires might be contributing to the harshness you are experiencing? Sometimes, sometimes, silver, if not terminated well, can cause a problem. If you are using copper, there usually isn't as much worry about in that regard.

Just a thought Doug and thanks.

Steve

Great idea Woodsyi. Tj, I think Bunky has 9 total preamps; maybe one might be just right for you.

[bunky]

I would not even consider selling the Candela.   The last pair of tubes that i rolled into the Candela were circa 1955 CBS/Hytron 5814 wa's, these are the ones we listened to at Woodsyi's BBQ. My personal favorites are the Circa 1962 Amperex Holland 7316 PQ D-getter's. the Candela is a much more neutral preamplifier with the 7316 PQ's in the circuit.The SAS 10A was just recently upgraded by Steve Sammet and is my tube powered rig's preamplifier and i run Pearl Cryovalve JJ Tesla 6922's in it. The NOS Seimens ECC88 A-frame tubes that Maxwalwrath ran in it are very good tubes but the Cryovalves edge them out slightly in my system.thanks....WCW III

[Scottdazzle]

TjMV3,

The Candela was very quiet. The noise floor was below my ability to hear it.

Scott

[bunky]

I hope it's not too late for one more cook in the kitchen. As Woodsyi pointed out, I did find the SAS to be the most accurate, and hence most desirable preamp sonically. I think it conveyed the music as close to the real thing as any preamp I have ever listened to. I agree with Doug that offering no remote is disappointing and a potential deal breaker. I don't want to get up and cross the room every time someone in the family or on the phone is calling. Call me lazy.

The Modwright is very pleasurable, but to my ears just the slightest bit euphonic compared to the SAS.  With a different source component I might reach a different conclusion.  The BBBB curiously sounded better the second time around. The Odyssey Candela was very warm by comparison - clearly a tube unit.  If we had been testing any other components (sources for instance) instead of preamps I think any of these would have satisfied me sonically. It will be interesting to try the BBBB again after the bugs are worked out. It's a great prototype.

The switch to vinyl late in the evening put all of this nitpicking in perspective. The vinyl sounded way more musical than any of the songs we listened to via the squeeze box. I don't know if that is because of some weakness in the hard drive/wireless source configuration or just that vinyl is still the best source. There was noticeably greater depth, dimensionality, and better harmonics. At home, I prefer vinyl to cd's, but haven't gotten on the squeeze box bandwagon yet.

I have a pet peeve about all of these preamps and that is the absence of a phono pre.  People who buy high end equipment still listen to and generally prefer vinyl.  I wish preamp manufacturers would routinely offer versions of their products with phono circuits. My preamp (Tube Audio Design TAD-150) may be a cut below these four, but it has phono inputs and a remote for which I am grateful every day.

Finally, great thanks to Rim & Robin for yet another great MAAC get together. The food, drink, and hospitality make these events enjoyable social events.  The music is great, but the setting and friendship make these gatherings an event.

I thought that every preamp that we listened to at the BBQ sounded very good but the SAS 11A sounded the Most lifelike to my ear's.thanks....WCW III

[bunky]

Hi Doug,

     May I ask one more question Doug? Is there any chance the ICs and/or speaker wires might be contributing to the harshness you are experiencing? Sometimes, sometimes, silver, if not terminated well, can cause a problem. If you are using copper, there usually isn't as much worry about in that regard.

Just a thought Doug and thanks.

Steve

Great idea Woodsyi. Tj, I think Bunky has 9 total preamps; maybe one might be just right for you.

Hey Steve, i have owned nine preamps total but now i am down to a much more managable eight 

[doug s.]

Hi Doug,

     May I ask one more question Doug? Is there any chance the ICs and/or speaker wires might be contributing to the harshness you are experiencing? Sometimes, sometimes, silver, if not terminated well, can cause a problem. If you are using copper, there usually isn't as much worry about in that regard.

Just a thought Doug and thanks.

Steve

Great idea Woodsyi. Tj, I think Bunky has 9 total preamps; maybe one might be just right for you.

i don't know if rim's system wires are 100% silver or not.  in any ewent, the digital system sounded more natural w/the three tubed preamps, compared to the bbb.  perhaps, as has been discussed here, it's cuz the bbb needs some more work.  in any ewent, no i/c's were changed when the preamps were changed.  and, the sound was not at all harsh, even w/the bbb.  yust not as musical or life-like..  and, when switching to winyl, the musicality was increased a ton. 

in my system, i find that the alpha-core tq2-ag is extremely neutral cabling, not at all harsh.  and, digital in my system is not harsh, either.  i actually enjoy it.  but again, it doesn't sound as good as my analog set-up.

so, no, i do not think silver cabling is the issue.  i think redbook cd is the issue.  the trick for equipment designers, imo, is to make cd playback sound musical while still preserving the detail...  and, it also has to work well with analog, in the case of amps, preamps, speakers...

regards,

doug s.