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Quote from: TONEPUB on 27 Aug 2007, 06:54 pmWhat I've always found curious is how so many people seem to need to firmly adopt one belief or the other even though from my perspective, there's still plenty of ambiguity. Perhaps it's just part of human nature, similar to how many people seemingly need to believe in God or some other deity in spite of any ambiguity.Or like how many other people seemingly need to believe in atheism or believe the question is undecidable (which is the same thing in practical terms)?I might have added "in spite of any ambiguity" but the phrase doesn't really make sense in the context you used it.
What I've always found curious is how so many people seem to need to firmly adopt one belief or the other even though from my perspective, there's still plenty of ambiguity. Perhaps it's just part of human nature, similar to how many people seemingly need to believe in God or some other deity in spite of any ambiguity.
Quote from: TONEPUB on 27 Aug 2007, 11:07 pmNot to worry, I was just kidding....If I had an extra 25k laying around, I'd be down at the BMW dealership making a good dealon a used 330i. My 87 325 has 200k on the clock! (but still runs like a top!)But are you sure you can actually percieve a difference vs a Honda? You should ask the dealer for a double blind test at the racetrack.I've driven hundreds of high performance German cars. Don't even need a double blind for this...It's funny. Two good freinds of mine each wanted to buy a new car. Onewanted the new small Lexus and one wanted a 330i.... Neither of them hadever owned or driven a Lexus or BMW, yet were convinced that was what they wanted.Rather than take the bias towards BMW (because that's what I like...) I advisedthem to drive each car back to back, betting them both that they would walkaway wanting one much more than the other.Sure enough! The one that thought he wanted a Lexus ended up buying a BMWand vice versa for the other one...The moral of the story, you need to find what makes you happy about writing a check!
Not to worry, I was just kidding....If I had an extra 25k laying around, I'd be down at the BMW dealership making a good dealon a used 330i. My 87 325 has 200k on the clock! (but still runs like a top!)
This not a quote from one of my posts. I don't know how I keep getting dragged into these posts that are not mine...
Quote from: Carlman on 28 Aug 2007, 02:44 amSo, I'm a bloody wanker and should shut up and listen to Steve Eddy? He never said you need to listen to Steve Eddy. Personally I like the contributions of Steve Eddy, and jneutron et al. These guys have forgotten more about electrical engineering than I'll ever learn in my lifetime, so I value that they even take the time to give us real world data that is beyond our general knowledge. Which BTW, is why these threads are so valuable to me. It helps satisfy my hunger for knowledge. se also forces me to think, and re-think my position on what I perceive when I'm critically listening to gear, and/or music. Also something I enjoy (dammit!). As a matter of fact, it forced me to re-check myself as I was critically listening to 2 different power supplies on my SB 3 this evening.
So, I'm a bloody wanker and should shut up and listen to Steve Eddy?
The verdict? I most certainly clearly hear differences in the 2 power supplies. Should I find the time, I would even try and record a two channel recording of my speakers with the different power supplies and burn it on a CD for others to hear. I'd love to do it, just dunno if I can find the time.Let's not get this thread canned guys. K?Cheers
So, I'm a bloody wanker and should shut up and listen to Steve Eddy? ..... &*@(.
So, I'm a bloody wanker and should shut up and listen to Steve Eddy? What the? Did you take my comments directed to AJ specifically as a general statement about the whole thread? I think you missed my point, Freo.... I don't see how it's arrogant or ignorant to call out someone who hasn't done any experimentation and then discards everyone's opinion as invalid that actually has. It's offensive to me to disrespect the work people here have put into this hobby. I hope a mod can move this comment and yours to me to FC... Name calling isn't allowed here, &*@(.
Quote from: Summer on 27 Aug 2007, 05:35 pm.....Read the links.....Ok, so I decided to read some of the links... Didn't find a lot of real information... a lot of thoughts, opinions, etc.. and a few actual tests. You don't find this an actual test?Interconnects and Wires PSACS ABX Test Results reference: http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htmInterconnects and Speaker Wires Result Correct p less than Listeners$2.50 blister pack phono cable vs. PSACS Best 70 / 139 = 50%-7$418 Type "T1" Biwire vs. 16 Gauge Zip Cord 4 / 10 = 40%-1Type "Z" Biwired Speaker Cable vs. 16 Gauge Zip Cord 70 / 139 = 50%-7$990 "T2" Speaker Cable vs. 16 Gauge Zip Cord 16 / 32 = 50%-2In the first test, five specialty interconnects from AudioQuest, MIT, Monster Cable, H.E.A.R., plus Belden cable with Vampire connectors were compared to a $2.50 blister pack RCA phono interconnect. Listeners used Etymotic Research ER4 in-ear phones driven by the headphone jack of a Bryston 2B power amplifier.The next three tests are the data from Tom Nousaine's "Wired Wisdom: The Great Chicago Cable Caper", listed on the ABX periodicals page.The Type "T1" cables were compared on a system including an Sumo Andromeda power amp and JS Engineering Infinite Slope speakers, by the system's owner. He chose his own program material and had no time limit.The Type "Z" cables were tested on the system of a high end audio shop employee including: Snell type B-Minor speakers; Forte Model 6 Power Amp; and an outboard DAC. He used his own program material selected to show the differneces he expected.The Type "T2" cables were compared on a system including a Denon DCD-1290 CD player, and Accuphase P-300 power amplifier, and Snell KII speakers.No better than 50% could tell the difference between $1000 dollar Speaker cable and 16 gauge Zip Coard? You don’t believe this is scientific?Send questions or comments on the ABX Web Page to David Carlstrom. I'm not surprised a manufacturer of gear (McIntosh) thinks poorly of cable snake oil. Most designers I've spoken with couldn't care less about what wire you use to and from their gear as long as it's technically adequate. I'd be willing to bet McIntosh in 2007 has different take than they did 30 years ago on cables. (No they do not) I'll take a look when I'm at RMAF and see if they're still clinging to the same theory... One thing we've neglected to debate is the A/B switch itself. I especially liked McIntosh's speaker wire selector switch. That 30-yr-old switch might just impart a little of its own sound to whatever is connected to it... haha... That cracked me up. (Look at the prices of 30 year old McIntosh equipment, they hold their performance, value a little better than any cables, interconnects and power cords)The testing procedure should be questioned and the methodology (what would you suggest?), music choices (music choices?), etc. needs to be decided upon... I'll be back in 20 years when that's all sorted. hahaha.I think the list of links provided doesn't prove anything more than what's been said in this topic already. There are a few tests and a lot of opinions... Similar to this topic. Just like all adults, I know what I've heard and have made decisions based on my own tests. I encourage folks to do the same.So, yes, I'm summarily dismissing all of the links... (so give us a few links that show some sound affect?) but I'm not trying to 'win' any argument... Just playing around with this silly thread while my lunch heats up... This argument has 2 simple camps; those that have heard the difference, and those that haven't. I can't make someone hear what I've heard and they can't make me 'un-hear' what I already have. So, even if someone shows up at my house and I swap cables that have a definitive affect on the sound to me, the person who showed up can simply say they didn't.... Which has happened to me... Anyone ever asked their wife if they could hear a difference? haha... If you don't want to hear a difference or don't know how... you won't.So, does that mean I live in a fantasy land where I kid myself into hearing differences? (many would say yes).... I have a trained ear that hears differences in many things... real-life experiences, instruments, people talking, audio systems... etc.. I care about what things sound like and I pay special attention. How I hear changes over time as well... as do my tastes... oh no, a moving target of subjectivity!!! I also care about how certain things taste, like wine and whisky... If a non-wine enthusiast drinks some wine it's usually either 'good' or 'bad' to them. Much like audio... someone who listens to my system will generally say it sounds 'good'... sometimes 'bad' but not often. There is no granularity... the non-trained generally (like John Dunlevy, Gordon Gow and Russel Rogers, those are non-trained audiophiles?(not always) can't hear that a voice sounds more or less real to them... they don't know how to compare that. They can't focus in on different aspects of the performance and really find something to compare. It's just a buncha-stuff.... same with wine.. tastes good, kind of sweet... tastes bitter, I don't like it.. not sweet enough... I still don't see why someone so adament about not hearing differences in cables (with no cited experimentation) is even participating on an audio hobbyist forum. One doesn't have to drink your kool-aid to post do they?If you're going to dismiss wires, why not deconstruct it all? Why can't a cable-hater also dismiss every piece of electronics up the chain? If they function their task within the limits, they shouldn't make any difference. OK, lunch is ready... bye.-C
.....Read the links.....
As a matter of fact, it forced me to re-check myself as I was critically listening to 2 different power supplies on my SB 3 this evening.
The verdict? I most certainly clearly hear differences in the 2 power supplies.
Should I find the time, I would even try and record a two channel recording of my speakers with the different power supplies and burn it on a CD for others to hear. I'd love to do it, just dunno if I can find the time.
Let's not get this thread canned guys. K?
This topic is so long, that I lost the 'trail' about 10 pages ago. Steve Eddy must type 90wpm as topics he's in move muy rapido
Frankly, this topic has wandered far afield and for quite a long time now.....please add some levity/good humor and a touch of insight and we'll keep it running. If both fail to materialize, I'll close it and we'll move on to some other audiophool frivolity here on AudioCircle
Frankly, this topic has wandered far afield and for quite a long time now.....please add some levity/good humor and a touch of insight and we'll keep it running.
Chris that was really obvious, but extremely funny.
Bill Waslo has an interesting program (free too) that you may want to take a look at. Hopefully that's not considered a cardinal sin.cheers,AJ
Quote from: Carlman on 28 Aug 2007, 02:44 amSo, I'm a bloody wanker and should shut up and listen to Steve Eddy? He never said you need to listen to Steve Eddy. Personally I like the contributions of Steve Eddy, and jneutron et al. These guys have forgotten more about electrical engineering than I'll ever learn in my lifetime, so I value that they even take the time to give us real world data that is beyond our general knowledge. Which BTW, is why these threads are so valuable to me. It helps satisfy my hunger for knowledge. se also forces me to think, and re-think my position on what I perceive when I'm critically listening to gear, and/or music. Also something I enjoy (dammit!).As a matter of fact, it forced me to re-check myself as I was critically listening to 2 different power supplies on my SB 3 this evening. The verdict? I most certainly clearly hear differences in the 2 power supplies. Should I find the time, I would even try and record a two channel recording of my speakers with the different power supplies and burn it on a CD for others to hear. I'd love to do it, just dunno if I can find the time.Let's not get this thread canned guys. K?Cheers
Quote from: Daygloworange on 28 Aug 2007, 03:23 amAs a matter of fact, it forced me to re-check myself as I was critically listening to 2 different power supplies on my SB 3 this evening.But since sighted listening tests are known to be flawed with regard to determining actual audible differences, why would simply repeating the same flawed test bolster your confidence?se
And that is, why do you seem to believe you're somehow much less likely to subjectively perceive a difference even if there may be no actual audible difference than anyone else?
Why would you need to do that? The power supplies you're comparing are only powering the SB3, not everything else in your system. So why couldn't you simply make the recording straight off the SB3's output?
Or any guys canned for that matter.
Good question, and the answer is simple. Because as a recording engineer I've been doing it long enough to have a great number of reference points to make assessments as to differences between 2 things. I use certain cues and clues to tell me where those differences are most audible.
When tweaking sounds in the studio, we sometimes spend countless hours fine tuning on sounds. The great thing about the studio is you can do rapid fire testing. You have disable switches and so forth that enable you to do rapid fire back and forths. You also have programmable memory banks so that you can toggle back and forth between 2 modified programs of the same algorithm with minor tweaks.
Y'know, it's funny....I posted my original idea first thing this morning, then as I was taking a shower it dawned on me to do just what you described. I'll just record the analog outs of the SB 3 into the digital recorder in my studio. No need to mic anything. Doh!!
Quote from: AJinFLA on 28 Aug 2007, 03:46 amBill Waslo has an interesting program (free too) that you may want to take a look at. Hopefully that's not considered a cardinal sin.cheers,AJCan you provide a link? Thanks.Cheers
Quote from: Steve Eddy on 28 Aug 2007, 04:43 amQuote from: Daygloworange on 28 Aug 2007, 03:23 amAs a matter of fact, it forced me to re-check myself as I was critically listening to 2 different power supplies on my SB 3 this evening.But since sighted listening tests are known to be flawed with regard to determining actual audible differences, why would simply repeating the same flawed test bolster your confidence?seGood question, and the answer is simple. Because as a recording engineer I've been doing it long enough to have a great number of reference points to make assessments as to differences between 2 things. I use certain cues and clues to tell me where those differences are most audible. When tweaking sounds in the studio, we sometimes spend countless hours fine tuning on sounds. The great thing about the studio is you can do rapid fire testing. You have disable switches and so forth that enable you to do rapid fire back and forths. You also have programmable memory banks so that you can toggle back and forth between 2 modified programs of the same algorithm with minor tweaks. For example, you can alter the pre-delay on a digital reverb algorithm for say, a drum kit. You can alter it by 10ms lets say. If you were to simply listen to the drum kit playing through the stock algorithm, then stop, scroll though the preset, alter the single parameter of pre-delay by 10 ms, then listen to the drum kit through this modified algorithm, about 45 secs would have passed between "takes". It would be hard to hear what the differences would be. But, if you had the "stock" algorithm stored as a preset in a memory bank, and the modified algorithm as a preset in a memory bank right next to it, you just switch between the two, rapid fire, and listen. It is a great way to hear differences. When you've been doing that for 20 years, there are a number of things that you know what to look for as cues. Frequency response, early reflections, transients and so on.
It would be hard for me to decribe in writing clearly, but in a demonstration it would be easier.
QuoteAnd that is, why do you seem to believe you're somehow much less likely to subjectively perceive a difference even if there may be no actual audible difference than anyone else?Just years of doing what I just described. It can be a curse though. It's hard sometimes to be a casual listener. But the same goes for being a musician. I can't listen to music without listening to the players and figuring out "what" they're playing while I'm listening. That's a curse as well.
Quote Why would you need to do that? The power supplies you're comparing are only powering the SB3, not everything else in your system. So why couldn't you simply make the recording straight off the SB3's output? Y'know, it's funny....I posted my original idea first thing this morning, then as I was taking a shower it dawned on me to do just what you described. I'll just record the analog outs of the SB 3 into the digital recorder in my studio. No need to mic anything. Doh!! Or any guys canned for that matter.
Quote from: Daygloworange on 28 Aug 2007, 01:08 pmGood question, and the answer is simple. Because as a recording engineer I've been doing it long enough to have a great number of reference points to make assessments as to differences between 2 things. I use certain cues and clues to tell me where those differences are most audible.Ok. But does simply having done things for a long time necessarily make one more immune to perceiving differences even when there may be none, or does it just serve to bolster what may be nothing more than a false sense of confidence? I mean really, how would you truly know?se
I'm sorry, but I don't see how simply being able to switch back and forth somehow makes one less likely to perceive differences even if there are none.
I'm reminded of a story related by Russell Dawkins, who has many years of experience as a recording engineer. He tells of how he spent some six hours tweaking the EQ on a CD mater. Throughout the process he was just as convinced as you are that he was hearing the differences in the EQ settings and "tested" this by switching the EQ in and out. It was only after he was done and happy with the results that he discovered that the EQ he was tweaking wasn't even in the circuit. All he was doing was twiddling knobs and flipping switches while comparing one sound to itself.So unless Russell's experience is to be simply dismissed out of hand, it tells us that neither years of experience nor being able to switch back and forth is a guarantee against being a victim of our own human nature.
