[ehider]

To find the article that I pointed to in my thread response that proves (without "ear bias") actual differences bewtween cables with definative measurments (impulse responses applied to each cable that show deviations of energy storage and release that are unique within each cable varient):

Article name: "What a Difference a WIRE makes"
Publication: Stereophile
Year/month: December 1995

[Summer]

EHIDER,

Not to sure a $1000 bucks, plus airfare, hotel, lodging to your place is much of an inducement.  Also, to be fair, I don't expect you to pack up and move your whole system to some neutral site.   But, maybe we can get a few of the leaders in this field to contribute here?  That was the only point of my initial post.   I tend to agree with some of the leaders in this industry, those who have spent their careers in this field.  Why would the CEO and lead engineer at McIntosh both with advanced degree's state that interconnects have no significant change?  What would be their motivation?  Money?  If you research this, it was because the dealers were making so much money on wire that they begged McIntosh to put more expensive cables on their equipment so that individuals would be more inclined to purchase.  Does any speaker manufacturer recommend a specific brand of esoteric cables, Wilson?  At those high end prices, would they not include some high end cables for spending 20-60K on a set of speakers?

I am just a listener who has probably spent too much on this hobby already, though I truly enjoy it.  49 years old, clean ears, don't have them tested yearly.  Have four different systems in the house, probably about 40K invested.

 I will buck up $1000 and for any the following individuals expenses to send a truly documented audio electronic engineer who has researched and published on this topic (see below)

(Note)  Read the links, Tom Nousaine already bagged out on this once at his own shop, but maybe he will join you with his cables.

Roger Russell, (McIntosh 25 year audio engineer) http://www.roger-russell.com
Ethan Winter (editor, The Audio Critic)   http://www.ethanwiner.com/index.htm, Peter Azcel, http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf,
Francis Vale. http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html.   
http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html
http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,3,00.html
National semiconductor
http://signal.ece.utexas.edu/seminars/dsp_seminars/01fall/AudioMyths.pdf
http://pkant.htmlplanet.com/myths.htm
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6418215.html
“Howard Johnson, PhD, of Signal Consulting, frequently conducts technical workshops for digital engineers at Oxford University and other sites worldwide.”
(This cat may be a bit expensive to fly over the pond, but some of these guys will do it for the interest of testing and having the truth be known)

http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm
http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html
“Ethan Winer has been a professional musician, composer, audio engineer, recording instructor, computer programmer, and consultant since the 1960s.”
http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/1998-10_seven_shiny_pennys.htm
http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/Cable_Controversy/Cable_Controversy.htm

Also, can you provide any of those links to all those proven studies that show changes with expensive wire and power cords?
I don't have my old copies leather bound and kept for reference.

These people can design a solid double blind crossover test to give you a good test, including A, A test of your own cables.  And I believe your stating improvement?  Not just change, correct?  We can all change our sound with our pre-amps.

Your cable manufacturer probably would be a good objective source for your point of view; surely they or your dealer will join you since they would want to back their product.  Possibly you can provide someone to make sure the testing is fair and scientifically balanced?

Loser donates the grand to the Winner’s charity of choice. 
Results must be statistically significant and documented on this site or if the researcher decides to publish (if permission is granted). 

Maybe the results will all have us buying your high end brand cables, or possibly running down to the local hardware store, or somewhere in between?

[AJinFLA]

Maybe the results will all have us buying your high end brand cables, or possibly running down to the local hardware store, or somewhere in between?

I was digging through the closet desperately trying to find a SCSI cable, until I realized I had went straight from IDE to SATA.

cheers,

AJ

[Carlman]

.....Read the links.....

Ok, so I decided to read some of the links... Didn't find a lot of real information... a lot of thoughts, opinions, etc.. and a few actual tests.  I'm not surprised a manufacturer of gear (McIntosh) thinks poorly of cable snake oil.  Most designers I've spoken with couldn't care less about what wire you use to and from their gear as long as it's technically adequate.  I'd be willing to bet McIntosh in 2007 has different take than they did 30 years ago on cables.  I'll take a look when I'm at RMAF and see if they're still clinging to the same theory...

One thing we've neglected to debate is the A/B switch itself.  I especially liked McIntosh's speaker wire selector switch.  That 30-yr-old switch might just impart a little of its own sound to whatever is connected to it... haha... That cracked me up.  The testing procedure should be questioned and the methodology, music choices, etc. needs to be decided upon... I'll be back in 20 years when that's all sorted. hahaha.

I think the list of links provided doesn't prove anything more than what's been said in this topic already.  There are a few tests and a lot of opinions... Similar to this topic.  Just like all adults, I know what I've heard and have made decisions based on my own tests.  I encourage folks to do the same.

So, yes, I'm summarily dismissing all of the links... but I'm not trying to 'win' any argument... Just playing around with this silly thread while my lunch heats up...  This argument has 2 simple camps; those that have heard the difference, and those that haven't.  I can't make someone hear what I've heard and they can't make me 'un-hear' what I already have.  So, even if someone shows up at my house and I swap cables that have a definitive affect on the sound to me, the person who showed up can simply say they didn't.... Which has happened to me... Anyone ever asked their wife if they could hear a difference?  haha... If you don't want to hear a difference or don't know how... you won't.

So, does that mean I live in a fantasy land where I kid myself into hearing differences?  (many would say yes).... I have a trained ear that hears differences in many things... real-life experiences, instruments, people talking, audio systems... etc.. I care about what things sound like and I pay special attention.  How I hear changes over time as well... as do my tastes... oh no, a moving target of subjectivity!!!  

I also care about how certain things taste, like wine and whisky... If a non-wine enthusiast drinks some wine it's usually either 'good' or 'bad' to them.  Much like audio... someone who listens to my system will generally say it sounds 'good'... sometimes 'bad' but not often.   There is no granularity... the non-trained generally (not always) can't hear that a voice sounds more or less real to them... they don't know how to compare that.  They can't focus in on different aspects of the performance and really find something to compare.  It's just a buncha-stuff.... same with wine.. tastes good, kind of sweet... tastes bitter, I don't like it.. not sweet enough...

I still don't see why someone so adament about not hearing differences in cables (with no cited experimentation) is even participating on an audio hobbyist forum.  If you're going to dismiss wires, why not deconstruct it all?  Why can't a cable-hater also dismiss every piece of electronics up the chain?  If they function their task within the limits, they shouldn't make any difference.  OK, lunch is ready... bye.

-C

[TONEPUB]

I guess the only thing I've been able to discern from this incredibly long thread
is that the people on the "cables don't sound different" fence and those on the
"cables do sound different" side of the fence still believe what they believe.

Being in the "cables do sound different" camp, I do agree that the expensive
cables are horrendously overpriced.  That much I'll go for.  I had a guy at
CES last year trying to get me to review their $32 THOUSAND dollar pair
of speaker cables.....

He did tell me about all the "technology" involved.  When I told him I could
buy a very nice certified pre owned BMW 330i for that kind of money, he told
me I didn't get it.

Our classical music editor has an EEE , a PhD in Physics and is a highly
respected designer in the industry.  We had a long talk about cables today
and he too is very depressed about what's been going on there....
He thinks the mega cable thing is bunk too, but does think that there
are differences between cable...

If I had 25 grand to burn, I'd buy a pair of the new ODEN cable from
Nordost and the Tara zeros to review and report the truth.  I'm still
trying to get them in for review if possible, because I am sick of people
saying that you need this type of thing.  This is what's killing the high end
industry.

So, I hope at some point if we can't agree, we can at least find some
truth that we can quantify somehow.

[Steve Eddy]

To find the article that I pointed to in my thread response that proves (without "ear bias") actual differences bewtween cables with definative measurments (impulse responses applied to each cable that show deviations of energy storage and release that are unique within each cable varient):

Article name: "What a Difference a WIRE makes"
Publication: Stereophile
Year/month: December 1995

Ok.

I don't have any specific recollection of that article and Stereophile's Master Index for some strange reason doesn't include feature and reference articles and Google returned just two hits for the phrase "what a difference a wire makes," neither of which has anything to do with any Stereophile article by Ben Duncan.

I've got a call into John to verify that there was such an article in the December 1995 issue and if so I'll get that back issue.

But without having the benefit of reading the article in detail and going only by the brief description you give above, I don't see that there's anything particularly revelatory about it.

First, no one to my knowledge has claimed that there are no measurable differences at all between cables. Cables have properties of resistance, inductance and capacitance. And because of different materials, construction and geometry between cables, will tend to have measurably different resistances, inductances and capacitances. And if taken to extremes, these properties can result in differences in amplitude and frequency response sufficiently large to result in unarguable audible differences.

So no one's ever argued that there can be no measurable differences between cables. What's been argued is that it's trivially easy to design and build cables with sufficiently low resistance, inductance and capacitance that their effect on amplitude and frequency response is sufficiently below currently known audible thresholds that one would not expect them to result in actual audible differences.

Addressing more specifically what you say about the Duncan article, since cables possess the properties of inductance and capacitance, they would also by definition posses the property of electrical resonance. And sure, if you ping a cable with an impulse with high enough frequencies to excite the resonance, and if the resonance is under damped, it will continue to release the stored energy beyond the initial impulse.

And because different cables may have different resistive, inductive and capacitive properties, they will also have different resonant properties.

Nothing revelatory about this either.

And in order for such a resonance to have any meaningful effect on the audio signal, the resonance would need to be within or near the audio band. If the cable had an under damped resonance in or near the audio band, this would show up in a simple frequency response plot. Stereophile routinely does frequency response plots out to 200kHz. I don't recall seeing any resonances showing up in any of these plots due to cable resonances.

So to that end I'm not sure that what you describe from Duncan's article has any particular relevance.

se

[doug s.]

...If I had 25 grand to burn, I'd buy a pair of the new ODEN cable from
Nordost and the Tara zeros to review and report the truth.  I'm still
trying to get them in for review if possible, because I am sick of people
saying that you need this type of thing.  This is what's killing the high end
industry....

please, do not review those cables under any circumstances!  just the act of reviewing it is falling for the hype.  cables do make a difference.  but anything more than a few hundred bucks is hype.  period.  imo.   

doug s.

[Steve Eddy]

So, I hope at some point if we can't agree, we can at least find some
truth that we can quantify somehow.

But if people variously cling dogmatically to two diametrically opposed beliefs, then at least one group of people will never even see the truth.

What I've always found curious is how so many people seem to need to firmly adopt one belief or the other even though from my perspective, there's still plenty of ambiguity. Perhaps it's just part of human nature, similar to how many people seemingly need to believe in God or some other deity in spite of any ambiguity.

se

[AdamM]

Cables, belief, faith, spirituality, God.  All related?

Maybe JohnR and the mods were right.. that this topic should be verboten!  Cables are the religious component in your system?

[lonewolfny42]

Still going I see....

And...."belief, faith, spirituality"....not in cables...but in this....

And....its a product that works !!!

[Freo-1]

I still don't see why someone so adament about not hearing differences in cables (with no cited experimentation) is even participating on an audio hobbyist forum.  If you're going to dismiss wires, why not deconstruct it all?  Why can't a cable-hater also dismiss every piece of electronics up the chain?  If they function their task within the limits, they shouldn't make any difference.  OK, lunch is ready... bye.

The above statement is ignorance, almost to the point of elitist arrogance. The Aussies would categorize this as being "A Bloody Wanker". At any rate, if one would go through and read the threads,  one would see that most people who think there is a lot of snake oil  about cables also recognize the engineering aspects of cables, and how to at least that extent, there are aspects can be differentiated.

I think Steve Eddy has succinctly captured the essence of the subject.

[TONEPUB]

...If I had 25 grand to burn, I'd buy a pair of the new ODEN cable from
Nordost and the Tara zeros to review and report the truth.  I'm still
trying to get them in for review if possible, because I am sick of people
saying that you need this type of thing.  This is what's killing the high end
industry....

please, do not review those cables under any circumstances!  just the act of reviewing it is falling for the hype.  cables do make a difference.  but anything more than a few hundred bucks is hype.  period.  imo.   

doug s.

Not to worry, I was just kidding....

If I had an extra 25k laying around, I'd be down at the BMW dealership making a good deal
on a used 330i.  My 87 325 has 200k on the clock! (but still runs like a top!)

[Freo-1]

f I had an extra 25k laying around, I'd be down at the BMW dealership making a good deal
on a used 330i.  My 87 325 has 200k on the clock! (but still runs like a top!)

Now THAT sounds like a good plan!!   

[dorokusai]

Cables, belief, faith, spirituality, God.  All related?

Maybe JohnR and the mods were right.. that this topic should be verboten!  Cables are the religious component in your system?

That picture is great 

Mark

[DaveC113]

Not to worry, I was just kidding....

If I had an extra 25k laying around, I'd be down at the BMW dealership making a good deal
on a used 330i.  My 87 325 has 200k on the clock! (but still runs like a top!)

But are you sure you can actually percieve a difference vs a Honda? 

You should ask the dealer for a double blind test at the racetrack.

[TheChairGuy]

I think that's why I haven't tuned in of late at AC....we (replacing my wife's car - now 12 years old) just bought a 2004 325ci recently and am loving life. This car is jewelry 

I love this mid-life crisis thing 

John / TheChairlessGuy

Not to worry, I was just kidding....

If I had an extra 25k laying around, I'd be down at the BMW dealership making a good deal
on a used 330i.  My 87 325 has 200k on the clock! (but still runs like a top!)

[PaulFolbrecht]

What I've always found curious is how so many people seem to need to firmly adopt one belief or the other even though from my perspective, there's still plenty of ambiguity. Perhaps it's just part of human nature, similar to how many people seemingly need to believe in God or some other deity in spite of any ambiguity.

Or like how many other people seemingly need to believe in atheism or believe the question is undecidable (which is the same thing in practical terms)?

I might have added "in spite of any ambiguity" but the phrase doesn't really make sense in the context you used it.

[arthurs]

Cables, belief, faith, spirituality, God.  All related?

Maybe JohnR and the mods were right.. that this topic should be verboten!  Cables are the religious component in your system?

It's a single run of IC, so if we can make the assumption it is a digital cable, then is this a heavenly endorsement of DAC based solutions over one-box players......?

[Carlman]

.......ignorance, almost to the point of elitist arrogance. The Aussies would categorize this as being "A Bloody Wanker". At any rate, if one would go through and read the threads,  one would see that most people who think there is a lot of snake oil  about cables also recognize the engineering aspects of cables, and how to at least that extent, there are aspects can be differentiated.

I think Steve Eddy has succinctly captured the essence of the subject.

So, I'm a bloody wanker and should shut up and listen to Steve Eddy?  What the?  Did you take my comments directed to AJ specifically as a general statement about the whole thread?  I think you missed my point, Freo.... I don't see how it's arrogant or ignorant to call out someone who hasn't done any experimentation and then discards everyone's opinion as invalid that actually has.  It's offensive to me to disrespect the work people here have put into this hobby.  I hope a mod can move this comment and yours to me to FC... Name calling isn't allowed here, &*@(.

[Daygloworange]

So, I'm a bloody wanker and should shut up and listen to Steve Eddy? 

He never said you need to listen to Steve Eddy. Personally I like the contributions of Steve Eddy, and jneutron et al. These guys have forgotten more about electrical engineering than I'll ever learn in my lifetime, so I value that they even take the time to give us real world data that is beyond our general knowledge. Which BTW, is why these threads are so valuable to me. It helps satisfy my hunger for knowledge.

se also forces me to think, and re-think my position on what I perceive when I'm critically listening to gear, and/or music. Also something I enjoy (dammit!).

As a matter of fact, it forced me to re-check myself as I was critically listening to 2 different power supplies on my SB 3 this evening.

The verdict? I most certainly clearly hear differences in the 2 power supplies.

Should I find the time, I would even try and record a two channel recording of my speakers with the different power supplies and burn it on a CD for others to hear. I'd love to do it, just dunno if I can find the time.

Let's not get this thread canned guys. K?

Cheers