[Musicalmaniac]

I forgot the counter offer didn't I. I'll put a nice laquer finish on the rack for $800.00.We're talking discount store price here now, and this aint particle board! As far as the resonance qualities of this rack, I will only touch on this due to the highly subjective nature of this subject.  Regardless of how the wood may affect the sound two important factors remain that is very important that  I feel this rack addresses very well,  it provides a very stable and level surface for your components and it has the ability to drain vibrations through the legs via each spike and receiver cup. I understand a hardwood especially Maple is very desirable and many feel the density is a positive feature.  I had a fellow tell me in detail the sound of at least five differant woods and his preferance of wood, I wont go there!  If it works for you, more power to you. I know hardwood in gerneral is better quality, the end appearance is a total different story, and the price of hardwoods is quite a bit more expensive than a good quality Pine which would also add to the price significantly. I feel strongly if the rack was judged on appearance the finished pine would probably garner the most approval. This rack was definetely not built to compete with the nicer hardwood racks, it was meant to be a more affordable alternative while still having some very nice features and the same basic design of the more expensive racks that in all probability will look much nicer! The fact remains this is a very moderate price for such a quality piece of furniture.   

[some young guy]

fwiw... perhaps you should just consider an ad in the "industry ads" section. that's what i did and it's worked pretty well without me having to attempt to jam anything down the throats of a/c members. your woodworking skills are obviously well honed, so why not put together a well written ad, possibly including some customer comments and your thesis on wood's sonic attributes and let it speak for itself?

[MaxCast]

You know, I don't think any of us are denying you the quality of workmanship.  It's just that this is an audio forum and you got pine.  Stir up the pot and discuss why pine and birch plywood combo is good for audio like they did with maple butcher block.  Better yet, prove that pine has no resonance in the audio frequency and has very good sonic damping characteristics and people will pay what you ask.  Good luck.

This would make a good thread.  Why does everyone demand hard wood?  Is it to keep resonances away from the component or to drain vibration from the component??

[zybar]

You know, I don't think any of us are denying you the quality of workmanship.  It's just that this is an audio forum and you got pine.  Stir up the pot and discuss why pine and birch plywood combo is good for audio like they did with maple butcher block.  Better yet, prove that pine has no resonance in the audio frequency and has very good sonic damping characteristics and people will pay what you ask.  Good luck.

This would make a good thread.  Why does everyone demand hard wood?  Is it to keep resonances away from the component or to drain vibration from the component??

While one can debate the sonic qualities of the various hardwoods, one can't debate that the various hardwoods will hold up much better than a softwood like Pine. 

Personally, I wouldn't buy a Pine rack (or any furniture made of Pine) because it will scratch, gauge, etc...very easily.

George

[Bob in St. Louis]

Personally, I wouldn't buy a Pine rack (or any furniture made of Pine) because it will scratch, gauge, etc...very easily.

The soft pine wood will have an impression left in it from the feet of heavy equipment sitting on it for extended periods of time, visually 'trashing it up' and making it less appealing.
"Distressed wood" is desirable in some furniture, but not equipment racks.
Bob

EDIT: Acoustics aside; A definite perception of quality has faded away when soft woods are used in furniture making. For $1,000 for a small piece of furniture should be near heirloom quality, and like George noted, won't be of heirloom quality with soft woods in a few short years.

[ctviggen]

Better yet, prove that pine has no resonance in the audio frequency and has very good sonic damping characteristics and people will pay what you ask. 

Has anyone ever "proved" that any wood has no resonance in the audio frequency?  How would one even go about this "proof"?  You know, the lack of proper scientific analysis in this country appalls me. 

[zybar]

Better yet, prove that pine has no resonance in the audio frequency and has very good sonic damping characteristics and people will pay what you ask. 

Has anyone ever "proved" that any wood has no resonance in the audio frequency?  How would one even go about this "proof"?  You know, the lack of proper scientific analysis in this country appalls me. 

Of course it has a resonance in the audio frequency...doesn't all wood?

Isn't that why musical instruments are made of wood? 

George

[woodsyi]

Goes to tell you why one must think through before putting something down in writing.  Of course woods resonate.   How does that affect the sound when used as a rack?  I don't know.  Here is some explanations from a luthier about wood and grain on instruments. http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/dynmeas1.html
There seems to be some relevant information on this page as well.  How it works on a shelf I am not sure.
http://www.catgutacoustical.org/research/articles/modetune/index.html

[Bill Baker]

Every type of wood "sounds" different. I would think even a Pine rack could do a good job but would have an effect on the presentation. I have heard custom speakers made out of 1.5" thick pine with 1/2" pine on 3/4" MDF for the front baffle and braced with MDF that didn't sound half bad. They were beautiful looking speakers as well. I guess it would depend on how you coupled or decoupled the components in regard to a pine rack. At least with pine, it might be able to absorb some of the vibration on it's own?
 The problem with pine, as others have mentioned, is how it will hold up being among the softest woods around. It sure can look good if you start with furniture quality.

 We all know we sometimes play around with the most unorthodox theories only to get results we were never expecting. That's what this hobby is all about. Call it R&D.

 "Sometimes the most unorthodox combonations yields the best results"

[poseidonsvoice]

The problem with pine, as others have mentioned, is how it will hold up being among the softest woods around. It sure can look good if you start with furniture quality.

It sure can look good and that's fine and dandy. My concern is will it manage the weight of some of our components? Some of us have amplifiers weighing 100 lbs. My current DIY Flexy rack is made out of 2 inch maple for each shelf for that reason alone.

Whether the rack 'sounds' different or has resonance that would be deleterious to the audio presentation is not something I am concerned with. I'm concerned with longevity and durability. If the rack isn't durable, who cares what it sounds like ?

Anand.

[Musicalmaniac]

Thanks again for your time and the beating. May I have another?  It seems there is no room for anything but Cadillacs and Porches here. I agree the Pine is not nearly as strong and durable as most hardwoods. I've owned a fair amount of Pine furniture, in fact my oldest daugter teethed on one of the Pine endtables and left some nice imprints on it, up to that point it faired not to bad. If one is constantly changing gear and is somewhat of a cluts he may bang it up some prematurely. The stand is quite rigid and will easily handle 100 pound amps-etc.  I don't mean to try and dispute the durablility factor or anyones opinion because that is what I asked for. I'm trying to learn what may be sought after, accepted and for what price. If in fact the only market available for racks  is the top of the line hardwood or other composites with magic powers,  I would be curious what price range these must fall in. I understand for $1000.00 a rack must be of hardwood and heirloom quality and is the maximum amout any rack should sell for. I have never seen anything of heirloom quality before, and I guess I may not even know what I would be looking for. 

[marvda1]

put the rack on audiogon or ebay and start the auction at $300.

[Bill Baker]

Hi MM, To put things in perspective here. Below is a rack I sold for a while. It is made of Solid Birch with all but two shelves being adjustable every 2". I still have two in my showroom even though I am no longer a dealer for the line. The retail price at the time I was selling them (2 years ago) was $300 and later went up to $579.

[gitarretyp]

I'm going to have to agree with the other posters. I appreciate the labor you put into the stand, but your original asking price is unreasonable. I'd say $3-500 with a finish applied is more in line with the current market. An example of something in your listed price range is this solid maple (weighs 200 lbs), handmade rack with butcher block shelves and finish for $1300 and more of same.

.

[poseidonsvoice]

Thanks again for your time and the beating. May I have another?  It seems there is no room for anything but Cadillacs and Porches here. I agree the Pine is not nearly as strong and durable as most hardwoods. I've owned a fair amount of Pine furniture, in fact my oldest daugter teethed on one of the Pine endtables and left some nice imprints on it, up to that point it faired not to bad. If one is constantly changing gear and is somewhat of a cluts he may bang it up some prematurely. The stand is quite rigid and will easily handle 100 pound amps-etc.  I don't mean to try and dispute the durablility factor or anyones opinion because that is what I asked for. I'm trying to learn what may be sought after, accepted and for what price. If in fact the only market available for racks  is the top of the line hardwood or other composites with magic powers,  I would be curious what price range these must fall in. I understand for $1000.00 a rack must be of hardwood and heirloom quality and is the maximum amout any rack should sell for. I have never seen anything of heirloom quality before, and I guess I may not even know what I would be looking for. 

You misunderstand, Its not about Cadillac and Porsches. Its about building a Honda Accord and asking a BMW M5 price.

The last example from Jason is exactly what I was thinking of. If Chris Futrick of Timbernation is charging $520 for a finished maple rack like the one below, then your price is just way too high. Period.



Each shelf is 1 inch thick, made out of maple. Each shelf is 24 inches by 16 inches and the posts are 2 inches square. He'll even through in another couple coats of finish for a small increase in price. I think he makes money through the volume he sells.

With these fine examples I cannot forsee how $1000 for an unfinished Pine rack is reasonable, nor is $800 for a finished pine rack.

Personally, I don't think the fellas here go around buying Zoethecus stands knowing that similar quality and build is available elsewhere.

If you wondered why your product wasn't moving, well...that's why. Be that as it may, what you want to charge is completely up to you. I and others have illustrated to you (and recommended multiple times in the past) the expected list price of your rack as we have an understanding of perceived value.

Best,
Anand.

[Early B.]

If you're gonna sell something, it's always best to do a little homework first to size up the competition and determine a decent asking price. There are tons of real wood audio racks sold all over the 'net, so the research would have only taken a few minutes to conduct.

At this point, if you really want to sell your rack, take whatever you can get for it and move on. Like others have said, auction it off on ebay or audiogon, and start with a low price. Otherwise, keep it and enjoy.   

[WGH]

Woodworking is probably one of the hardest occupations to make money at because anyone with a Skilsaw and a sander can do it, or at least they think they can, unfortunately your rack fits into this category. In order to make money your stuff has to fit either into the "WOW!" category or you have to sell a lot of cheap stuff. If your rack was a WOW! you could sell them for $2000.

You have only 12 bd. ft. of pine and 1/2 sheet of plywood in each rack, add in $100 for cones and you have about $175 in material costs, so changing the wood is not going to effect the price that much if you want to stay with the same style, your major expense is labor. Even though I could make the rack in 10 hours it might have taken you much longer. Either get your hours down so the price reflects the perceived value or bump up the quality.

Edge banding is a pain in the ass, too many parts, too much sanding. Maple butcher block is the base du jour so go with that, add some bolted on maple legs with wood plugs covering the bolt holes, use the same spikes and you might have something sellable.

Sell each platform individually. Get a customer to buy 2 and he will be back for a 3rd and 4th as his system evolves or offer a slight discount for more. Free shipping, everybody loves free shipping and it makes the sale, do your homework and add packaging and shipping into the price.

So everybody give this guy a break, he probably has over 20 hours into this thing and $175 in materials so $1000 is what he figured out is a fair price (now $750), it looks well built, it's just the pine thing. Learning is sometimes painful.

[Musicalmaniac]

Hello, Thanks again for everyones time on this rack thing. WGH, has in my mind hit the nail on the head. I do have much more than 20 hours invested in this rack especially if it was finished in the multistep laquer process I use. I am not exactly a rooky here, I've worked for a local construction company for well over 20 years as a finish carpenter and have built my share of cabinets-etc. Even so, I am far from set up as proficently as could be. What I have learned from everyones input is first off and most importantly, Pine is not accepted here at all! Most seem to tout thick Maple or hardwoods as butcherblock style with a real simple basic design.  I'm not sure what I learned as far as my basic design. If it was Maple I mean. I mentioned early on that this rack was a design that I felt I could not add to my Audio Elegance line of audio furniture that is sold by a distinguished gentleman from Missouri, Jim Pendleton and can be viewed along with the best record cleaning fluid I have found at www.osageaudio.com   due to the fact I have way to much labor envolved as I have learned here at a great degree. I was originally not completely sure of my feelings and findings on the cost of building this plain rack was accurate and this is why I called upon help to determine this. I wanted to fill a void that I now found out for sure I can not do. I do have a Audio Elegance Rack in the James River collection in Pine that is the same basic design only it is available in several finish options, has the gold adjustable footers and has a mass loading resevoir incorporated in each tier. I have had very positive results with this line although it is priced much higher than the origal asking price of this unfinished rack that I offered to finish for 800.00.  This design is my own personal design that I worked countless hours on developing. I have great confidence and a fair amount of positive testomonials-etc. on this Audio Elegance line of furniture and the basic design of the unfinished rack. This furniture will be on display at this years RMAF at the Osage Audio Products Room, as well as at least one other room. I feel to really get the feel for what this furniture is it should be viewed in person and I hope to visit with any of you that may stop by. I have worked very hard on developing my own design that I feel is at least my approach to the audio furniture I feel is acceptable to be used as real audio furniture that is real furniture as well as having some very good sonic benefits.  It has  been my intent to learn from this experience as well as provide the majority with all I can to fill their needs while keeping in the standards of my design.  This basic unfinished rack will not be manufactured and was a research design that was given a last chance so to speak.  I hope I have never came across in any post as being pushy or offensive in any way as this was not my intention.  I appreciate imensely your viewpoints  and have a great deal of respect for everyones views. Sincerely, Jeff Dicks President Audio Elegance.

[Bill Baker]

Hey Jeff,
 Your last post is exactly how you gain integrity with the folks here at Audio Circle as well as with those who read such writings.

 R&D, or what I like to call "Let's give it a shot" is tough and doesn't always generate the reactions we would like. I for one feel you have what it takes to develop exceptional audio furniture and now that you have taken in some corrective criticism, you can move on to what you know works.

 Wishing you the very best of luck and continued success with your line.

[osageaudioproducts]

If any of the posters here would have an interest in actually seeing any of this furniture line, and are located in the central Midwest, please let me know.  I would be happy to bring it to your location at no obligation to you other than your time.  This offer stands for everyone here and I can work with your schedule any day of the week.

You can contact me through AudioCircle, email info@audiointelligent.com, or call 573-696-3551.