[macrojack]

Bus is subject to the same road hazards as my car and costs about the same. Downdise is no car when I arrive. I won't be staying at the hotel as I have a friend to visit in Capitol Hill. Train is famously scenic and I have always been curious about that ride. The train is twice as long timewise, notoriously unfaithful to its schedule and inconvenient from a scheduling perspective. The bus is full of riff-raff. Local cops pull drug smugglers off the Greyhound with alarming regularityas they cruise through the station with their sniffing dogs.
The car wins this one hands down. Thanks for trying, Chris. You're quite a resource. 

[macrojack]

T-37 must be scratching his head by now. Has anyone else noticed how far we have strayed from his question?

[lonewolfny42]

OK Tom...see you there...now back to the question at hand...

I have on order a fet valve 350 and Trancendant 8 pre from AVA. I will be using a Alesis Masterlink as a  CD transport,along with a project debut with blue point special cartrage. Interconnect are Kimber hero and speaker connect are Kimber 8tc.

My room measurements are 18' x 30' with a dining room to the right of it that opens up to 12' x 8' .I was using a Nad c370 amp along with a set of Kef Q7 speakers that were replaced by a used set of swan 6.1's.

Music: Lots of jazz and blues ,venturing into classical and still play a little hip hop.Looking for a speaker that can do all of the above.

I never felt satisfied with my set up,thus the up grade to AVA.I want to get the best performance from my gear it comes. Any help will greatly be appreciated.

If suggestions are offered please note budget will be under $2,500.

[T37]

Just sitting back obsorbing the knowledge

[T37]

Just sitting back obsorbing the knowledge

[JLM]

macrojack,

I've not heard any Zu speakers, but have heard a couple of big woofer/small tweeter speakers.  The Fostex F200A uses a big Alnico magnet that vintage guys love.  It can be used in ported, transmission line, or open baffle designs.  It is very different from nearly all other Fostex drivers.  The Visaton B200 is a mid/tweeter in comparison.

Bob Brines FTA-2000 speakers (transmission line that use the F200A) cost $1600/pair plus shipping.  Various kit forms are available for much less.  Bob is retired and sells them for enough to keep his audio interests funded.


Dayglow,

There is no perfect speaker, but for domestic use nearly any decent speaker I've heard plays loud enough.  The advantages of active design can't be denied once you've heard a direct comparison.  If it weren't for the F200A, I would have gone with a two-way speaker.

[lonewolfny42]

T37....
Have you listened to the Vandersteen or Thor speakers ?

I see you have hear the Vans...ok.

[Scott F.]

Quite the contrary, it's with the vast amount of knowledge I've gained that I've learned how serious these factors limit single driver speakers.

DGO,

I really hate to push back but I have to step in and say something. Granted, the speakers that you have experience with didn't trip your trigger, but that does not mean that others can't fill (nearly) the entire audio spectrum quite well. Your comments that a full range driver can't do it all is only do to your specific experience with the few speakers you've had exposure to.

That said, I've heard good and (sometimes very) bad single drivers. I've heard Fostex in a back loaded horn that will rock your socks off, plus they have decent treble (to about 10-12k). I've also heard Lowthers that can do close to 30Hz (evenly in a properly designed cabinet). Their treble goes out to about 14k. I've also heard Supravox Field coils in a rear loaded horn that are to die for....a little soft on the top end but head and shoulders above the vast majority of multiway speakers I've heard. There are a number of other single driver speakers out there that are also quite good. Rythem and PHY come to mind.

The trouble I see with with most single drivers is they are heavily embraced by the DIY community. In turn, many, many DIY'ers are (relative) cheapskates. They refuse to pay 2-3k  for a pair of quality drivers that will cover all but the octave extremes. Then you have complicated enclosures that are required to make these single drivers perform at their best.

Please, believe me when I say it can be done, because I've heard them on a number of occasions. On the other hand, I've heard more single driver speakers that sound like acoustic meat grinders (to borrow a term) than I care to think about. And yes, those done right play any type of music, simple or complicated.

That said (again), I've chosen to pass on full range for an extended range approach. I use my Lowthers (PM2A's) at 150Hz and up in an OB, actively crossed over and bi-amped to 15" (vintage) woofers. I let the Lowther's do what they do best.

[Daygloworange]

Quite the contrary, it's with the vast amount of knowledge I've gained that I've learned how serious these factors limit single driver speakers.

DGO,

I really hate to push back but I have to step in and say something. Granted, the speakers that you have experience with didn't trip your trigger, but that does not mean that others can't fill (nearly) the entire audio spectrum quite well. Your comments that a full range driver can't do it all is only do to your specific experience with the few speakers you've had exposure to.

ScottF,

No worries here man, I enjoy hearing other's experiences. I enjoy dialogue. That's what I love about this place. You have to keep in mind I come from a different background than most audiophiles. The same limitations I describe in single drivers being asked to multitask over a wide frequency range, are the same problems that exist in microphones. Condensor mic's come with very small to quite large diaphrams, and with that, there are strengths and weaknesses to both. Speakers are essentially the reverse to a microphone (albeit more akin to a dynamic mic vs a condensor).

Can a single speaker go down to 30 Hz and up to 12 Khz at the same time? I'm sure it can. Can it sound good doing it? There's enough people who have heard them, that have lots of experience with gear who say yes.

But do I think that a really high end single driver can cover a full bandwidth range, playing very dynamic and harmonically complex music, without distortion ,strain and compression in the way a multiple driver speaker can (say, a line array)and sound as full and harmonically rich doing it? I haven't heard it yet. Nor do I think it's physically possible.

Electrostatics, planar speakers, or ribbon speakers, I don't have as much experience with so I can't really say much. I'm strickly talking conventional cone type drivers and conventional tweeters ( Dome, ribbon, planar)

I realize that debating this could irk someone who believes his choices (be it 2 ways, single drivers etc,) could take my comments personally, but that's not the intent with what I'm saying. My posts are strictly for posterity, and general discussion of audio, and the technologies that exist in an effort to reproduce sound.

Problem is, is that with every move I've made, I get closer and closer to the realization that line arrays are probably as close to ideal as possible. I'm up to a 4 way speaker system now, and still own a number of 2 ways and when I go back, it's always a shock. I can't go back now. I'm just missing too much. Dynamics, clarity, articulation, resolution, impact, and frequency range.

Does that mean that other systems can't sound absolutely wonderful and engaging? Hell no.

I'm really looking forward to RMAF. Looking forward to hearing all the gear, and meeting AudioCircle regulars.

 

Oh, and too add to T 37's list of speakers to check out. He should look at RAW Acoustics HT 3's, as well as the OBX offerings. The GR Research A/V 3's are a great T/L  MTM 2 way, and the OB 5 and 7 series speakers are simply amazing. These are offered as DIY kits and offer some of the greatest value to the budget conscious audiophile. All within his budget as well.

Cheers

[T37]

This afternoon I spoke to Adam at ZU, not knowing that they sold direct.He gave me a location in Jersey called Logic hi fi that would allow me a demo.

Lonewolf

I did hear the Vandersteens and liked them.I did not hear the Thors but have heard/rather read good things about them.There are others that have my interest but not my wallet.

[doug s.]

i like zu speakers.  enuff that i ended up buying the druid monitors there were demo'd here on a/c a few years back.  but i don't like them enough to use in my main rig - too veiled.  conwersations w/6moons audio's srajan ebaen about his reference zu definition pro's indicate he also thinks they aren't the most detailed speakers around, but they do the "all-around" thing best for him.  which is why there's different strokes for different folks - you have to listen for yourself.

srajan found the coincident victory's not to really move him, tho he thought they did many things extremely well.  imo, i think he may have changed his tune, if he'd tried active x-over & subwoofers.   aa  for me, i would take the victory's w/subs over the zu's any day.  at 97db-efficient & 14 ohms, they also can be used w/a wide range of amps.  if i didn't awreddy own a pair, i would jump on these - a freaking steal at $1800, imo:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1191592292


mount 'em on 10" stands, & add subwoofers, & you will have as good (or better, due to being able to independently position the subs?) than coincident's $12k/pair super-victory's...

i would also be extremely interested in hearing gr-research's ls6's & ls-9's; and as prewiously mentioned here, selah audio is offering a give-away on one of their $8k line-array demo's for $3k delivered.

while i am not as dogmatic as some about an ultimate speaker design type, i suspect i would have to lean towards line arrays as the design that offers the most pluses w/the least compromises....  but, i do not even own a pair!     i am happy w/2-ways, m-t-m-ww's, full-range driver w/supertweeter, and my latest acquisition - a design w/a coax midrange/tweeter ribbon driver, playing everything above ~500hz, sitting atop two midwoofers.  crossed over to subs, of course!   

t37, you yust have to try different things for yourself.  buy a few different speaker types used, listen in your own rig, keep what you want, sell the rest.  but if you're not careful, you may have a hard time selling anything.   

now, for some spam  - you could always try my cool diapason adamantes lll's - this is one two-way speaker that's excellent, and beautiful, but i can't yustify keeping 'em, due to their cost, and the due to other speakers i also presently own.  no x-over at all on the midwoofer, & the tweet is crossed at 4.4khz...  check the a/c classifieds for my ad...

doug s.

[JLM]

T37,

Note that much of the divergence of opinion here can be explained by considering:

1.  Musical preferences
2.  Size of room
3.  Average sound pressure levels
4.  Sensitivity to high frequencies
5.  Individual senstivities

Asking for our opinions can be like listening to a discordinant chorus.  If you want to "do it right" you'll have to do your own hunting.  That's a big part of this hobby.  Some times we run across a         millionaire type who doesn't want to learn about audio or even his own likes, just wants another toy or trophy.  The first step in the hunt is to educate yourself musically and train your ear as to what to listen for within the musical genres you like.  No one can do that for you and until you figure that much out, you'll never be satisfied with any system.  IMO the only true musical standards are live/unamplified performances that take everyone else's equipment and recording practices out of the equation.

Many audiophiles enjoy understanding the underlying physics, to help the analytical side of the brain stay involved.  Others are in it for purely the musical enjoyment.  Like many things in life, the best answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.  Having a handle on the principals to direct you towards what does or doesn't makes sense is probably enough and then let your sensibilities take over.

The meat of the hunt is auditioning.  The best way is in your home with 2 - 4 pieces/pairs stimultaneously.   This of course is exceedingly difficult to arrange.  Short of this you should be able to rather quickly rule out many speakers upon a very quick listen.  Try to keep these quick trials in rooms similar to your own.  This is the idea behind audio fests, like the RMAF.  Another option is to attend local club gatherings.  They are typically a hit or miss of equipment that might interest you, but the price is right, the fellowship can be great, and the advice normally doesn't include a profit motive.

All this aside, I think you've started out with 3 good choices of speakers. 

[JLM]

Dayglow,

My problems with line arrays are:

1.  They can't image vertically as there's nothing to differentiate up from down;

2.  Typically there aren't enough drivers spaced close enough together to avoid comb effects and provide the true floor to ceiling line arrary effect;

3.  To "do it right" the drivers should be high quality which makes the speaker very expensive, using the Thor drivers as an example and spacing the drivers 6 - 10 inches apart would take 48 drivers and cost roughly $8,000 in drivers per pair;

4.  It violates the KISS principle


I auditioned Paradigm Studio 20s and Active 20s years ago, which used the same standmounted 2-way design and drivers.  The passive Studio 20s sounded pretty much as you'd expect from $800/pair Paradigm speakers (not meant to be a judgement).  But the $1600/pair Active 20's blew everyone away!!  Ruler flat frequency reponse, high output, more detail, huge dynamics, and unbelievable depth of bass.  There was no competition, not even close.  If audiophiles wanted to simply enjoy music and not be gearheads, they'd simply go active and concentrate on the source, period.  Of course single driver designs are active by default.  The active advantages compensate for many of the shortcomings you'd see on paper.

In the end I know that there is no perfect speaker.

[Daygloworange]

No speaker can image vertically. Why? Because microphones can't.

4.  It violates the KISS principle

One of my favorite principals. Less is more (usually). But for me, a single driver (while keeping in the KISS principle) kind of goes against it as well. It's being asked to do too many things at the same time, and do them well. A daunting task.

I've heard a number of people speak very highly of actively cross speakers. I'd like to learn more about it. Apparently there are some issues with active crossovers on paper vs conventional passive crossovers, but, apparently the results are very good. Other than PA systems, I don't have any experience with them though.

In the end I know that there is no perfect speaker.

I agree. Even if there was, not everyone would like it. 

Cheers

[macrojack]

T-37

By active, JLM means there is no passive crossover between the amplifier and the driver. Single driver speakers have one driver per amplifier channel. Multiple driver designs will still have one amplifier channel per driver but will need an active (powered) crossover system to assign frequency ranges to specific drivers.

This type of speaker can be very expensive. I think you will still find your best results with a single driver
type.

Where do you live? If you provide that info, volunteers near you might appear. Invitations could start flooding your mailbox. People who have way too many speakers, could offer you unforeseen bargains on their unused speakers. A recent thread here at AC clearly demonstrates that a lot of members have more than they need.

[BrianM]

No speaker can image vertically. Why? Because microphones can't.

Maybe what was meant was vertical dispersion?

[Danny Richie]

I couldn't help but comment on these points.

1.  They can't image vertically as there's nothing to differentiate up from down;

Actually quite the opposite. The line sources that I have designed easily give you height differentials. You can hear information that is deep and high up in the sound stage to information that is very low and up front.

2.  Typically there aren't enough drivers spaced close enough together to avoid comb effects and provide the true floor to ceiling line arrary effect;

Driver to driver (drivers next to each other) are easily spaced in such a way as to avoid comb filtering effects. I get very consistent measurements regardless of vertical position within about 80% of the length of the line. This is not an issue.

3.  To "do it right" the drivers should be high quality which makes the speaker very expensive, using the Thor drivers as an example and spacing the drivers 6 - 10 inches apart would take 48 drivers and cost roughly $8,000 in drivers per pair;

I agree, high quality drivers make just as much of a difference in a line source as any other speaker, but the highest quality drivers need not cost a lot of money. I have two very high end line source kits available that are not expensive at all. LS-6 and LS-9 kits are only $1,995 and $2,695.

[JLM]

Danny,

Not to question your hearing or knowledge, but please explain how a line array can image vertically.  I've never heard it from a line array and can't imagine how it possibly could.  With multiple drivers its easy to understand how the drivers aren't being stressed into distortion and how the speaker could handle lots of power, but in my experience most audiophiles do serious listening at 80 dB or less so neither of these benefits have a great deal of real world value.

I can't find a reference/link to the LS-6 or LS-9 from your site, but those are very expensive kits especially if it doesn't at least include pre-cut panels.  Not to say their content overpriced, that your R&D isn't worth it, or that DIY isn't a great idea (I built my own TL woofer enclosures back in 1980).  I found pictures elsewhere at AC and yes, the LS-9 uses 21 drivers versus my ballpark for argument sake guess of 24 per speaker.  Packed together that tight you certainly shouldn't have comb effects.  (My concern #2)

I doubt $30 - 50 drivers (that I can find on your site) are what I'd call high quality (my standard, not a slam, not to imply they aren't great for the money) or that I'd trade all of them at $2000 - 2700 for top of the line tweeter, midrange driver, plus powered sub parts (as IMO most audiophiles don't need super high spls).  (This is a good example of what I was trying to express in my concern #3.)

[JLM]

Dayglow,

"No speaker can image vertically."   

Wow, where have you been? 

[T37]

macrojack I live in New Jersey. work in Manhattan