What's a good sub for a 2-channel setup?

JackD · « **Reply #20 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 02:02 pm »

Two use the Vandies the Coda will need pre-outs and amp ins as if you were going to use just the amp seperately. The passive Hi-pass crossover goes between the pre and the amps inputs inline. If they will work they are as musical a sub as you will find for music. Have used a pair for over three years with various speakers floorstanders and monitors. The adjustable Q feature on the 2WQ is not that big a deal for music according to Richard himself. He suggested to me to save the money in a music only system and buy a pair of the older 2W's used as the Q feature is to make people happier in a dual Audio/HT system. He even scoffed at the idea of me sending the 2W's back to him to be upgraded to 2WQ status even though he would have made money off of the deal.

Jack

vpolineni · « **Reply #21 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 02:44 am »

thanks for all of the input... i'll be doing some research for awhile for i'm trading in my coda for the upgrades... if anyone's interested, check this review out:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/coda2/unisonltd.html

After I pay this off, I'll buy a sub... Along with the KEF psw 4000, i'm looking at the aci titan II le and the martin logan depth. Has anyone heard these? The aci and the ml in particular seem to be known for being musical. thanks again.

vpolineni · « **Reply #22 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 02:28 am »

alright guys... i'm looking for advice from all of you knowledgeable members here.. so please help me out.

What's the point of having 2 subwoofers in a 2-channel system? I was thinking about it today and my rationale was that if you have one subwoofer... you'll lose some of the imaging that was intended with a bass guitar for example on a cd.. If you had 2, you could hear these effects the way it was intended to be.. does that make sense???

If I go with 2 subs... i definetly have my eye on these:
http://www.audioc.com/speakers/TitanII/2001Titanle.htm

If not, I'm thinking I could get away with a martin logan depth subwoofer placed in the middle of my speakers slightly behind them... but this wouldn't validate my thinking....

anyways, PLEASE help a confused "audiophile"

thanks.

John Casler · « **Reply #23 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 03:20 am »

The ACI us one great sub, just remember that it is a "down firing" design, and many, find that front firing subs offer a greater "transient" attack to the mid and upper bass, which means using a lower crossover point (probably around 60Hz) for down firing.

Now this can be affected by room loading and interaction, but in "stereo" subs, pushing the air along the floor boundary is particulary effective for Low Bass, and less effective (or so it is thought by some) for leading edge impact.

Personally I have a tendency to create my systems this way and play them (cross them over and place them) accordingly.

Flanking Woofs is a grand look and I wish I could get a listen to Doug's system sometime. (check his gallery pictures)

Just a couple points to consider when moving from JBL to Stereo Subs.

Dozer · « **Reply #24 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 06:04 am »

Hey V, I have the same integrated amp (well not for long now that you're getting the Limited Ed -congrats) - and I use a single ACI Titan (original). It just supplements the very low bass - I set the lowpass at 50hz. It fills in beautifully where the mains drop off. It is impossible to localize.

I think downfiring will work fine for you because you're probably going to cross over very low, but you might try a single sub before you spend your money on two Titan II LEs.

I believe ACI and most experts recommend two subs to either increase your output or smooth your room response - not to create stereo effect in the first two octaves. I don't believe the stereo illusion is working at <60hz (some say <80). Some sound guy told me that a pair of subs should actually be half way up the center of two adjacent walls for best smooth response.... yha, when monkeys come flying out of my butt!

I have ACI mains too - awesome speakers, the pride of my system over even the 6 moons award winning Continuum Integrated.

Lucky you have time to deliberate while you pay off your account with Coda huh? I'm kind of surprised that the Thiels and that 300wpc integrated are leaving you in want of a sub actually.

Tyson · « **Reply #25 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 06:10 am »

You would only need 2 subs if you are going to cross over at 80hz or higher. I think stereo subs at 100 or 150 hz give you much better midbass impact, especially with less than full range main speakers. If you cross over at 60 hz (or lower), save the $$ and just get a single sub.

VMPS subs are the best music subs you are likely to find. Their drivers (woven carbon fiber) and surround (natural rubber) simply allow for better transients than other cone/surround materials.

doug s. · « **Reply #26 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 12:06 pm »

i tink two subs are better than one for many reasons - better room integration & lower distortion at any given spl are certainly prime consideration. but, even at low x-over points, i tink the use of two subs, set up for soundstage, prowides better imaging, than only one. there must be ambient cues in the recordings that account for this, as it seems using one sub always compromises soundstaging, ime. even at low x-over point, some of the bass always seems to come from wherever the sub is. the best compromise for only one sub, for soundstaging, is centered directly between the speakers, imo. nearfield is even better. but, this may not always be best for bass response, aesthetics, etc.

john mentions my subs, flanking my monitors. ya this is how i like it - best soundstaging that way, for sure. but, i do not get room-shaking bass response w/them in this location. (well, except for a coupla recordings!

) part of this is due to the large room size, and the fact that the room opens up to other equally large spaces. but, i'm sure i could sacrifice natural soundstaging for room-shake, if i moved my subs agains walls... in my much smaller bedroom, a pair of floor-standers, rated -2db at 28hz, easily energizes the room, much more than the main rig, due to speaker location & smaller room size...

and tyson, tho i agree w/vmps being the best music subs at anything even remotely resembling a sane price, i tink it's due to their simple engineering design (ie: big boxes) more than use of exotic materials. this allows for lower distortion, lower frequency response, & higher output w/o need of equalization and/or extremely expensive exotic hi-excursion drivers needed when trying to squeeze low frequencies out of a small box. when i 1st got my larger subs, there was no carbon fibre or rubber surrounds. when i upgraded to megawoofers, there was an improvement for sure, but it was wery subtle. and, in fact, the 15" "megawoofers" are still w/foam surround, & poly cone - yust bigger magnets...

doug s.

btw, a pair of vmps larger subs, a quality outboard x-over & s/s amp will not cost any more than a pair of aci titans.

diy on the subs w/pre-made cabinets, or build yer own cabinets & save even more... of course, for most rooms a pair of vmps original subs would be more than sufficient.

vpolineni · « **Reply #27 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 03:17 pm »

tyson, what you said makes sense... my question to you (and anyone else for that matter) is does it matter where I place that one sub? Does it have to be in the center of the room or can i place it in the left corner... I plan on crossing it over at around 35hz if that helps.. thanks to everyone for the quick replies.

jqp · « **Reply #28 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 03:26 pm »

The reason that you can have one sub is that below a certain frequency, your brain can't detect the source of the sound. That frequency has a wavelength more or less the distance between your ears. With your room affecting this theory to some extent, you will probably want to put the sub where you cannot detect the source of the sound (the sub). My understanding, as one who does not own a sub!

Except...I would put it between between the two speakers because I would think that would eliminate a lot of factors that could affect the sound.

rosconey · « **Reply #29 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 07:35 pm »

place the sub in your seated position and crawl arround the room on your hands and knees till you find the sweet spot-put the sub there. or put it where it looks good.

my large is in the right corner , its crossed at 90 and you cant detect the bass position(cant tell were its coming from) i have used it in mono and in stereo in the same place,works great==get a vmps large

Tyson · « **Reply #30 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 07:48 pm »

The interesting thing about subs and low frequencies - if you cross if over low, you won't be able to "hear" where the sub is located, so anywhere is OK for placement from that standpoint.

But, one thing I have notices is that while I cannot locate a sub by sound, there is a sense of a physical sensation of pressure than can be felt by your body/skin, and it does tend to impact your body a bit more on the side that the sub is located on. Given that, I recommend putting a single sub between your speakers.

And, crossing over that low, FORGET a small sub, to do deep bass at any reasonable volume, you need a big sub with a big driver with plenty of excursion. The VMPS rec still holds, but you should also look at the SVS PB-2 or even a custom built sub from http://www.acoustic-visions.com - they have some very good drivers and very well built enclosures for a quite reasonable price - better value than almost any commercial sub out there. Specifically, an AV-15 driver in a 24" square box with dual passive radiators tuned to 18hz would be all the sub you will ever need for low frequencies, and pretty much kill the SVS and probably even the VMPS for low distortion output down low. Just match it with a good pro amp (QSC or Crown) and you are set.

vpolineni · « **Reply #31 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 08:11 pm »

tyson, wouldn't a 15" driver be to big?? I was thinking it would be better to have 10" drivers (same as in my thiels) or even 8" drivers so that they would be more fast and take away any chance for boominess....

Tyson · « **Reply #32 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 08:19 pm »

You would be correct if you were going to play the subs up to 80hz or 100hz, and didn't care about bass below 30hz. 10 inch woofers (as a rule) simple will never be able to move enough air to get any type of low bass at any decent volume level (ie, above 80 db or so). ESPECIALLY not cleanly. Sure, a small driver can be made to produce a loud sound when sent a low bass signal, but the distortion levels are gonna be horrible. For realistic bass at low frequencies, there is NO replacement for displacement - moving large ammounts of air is what it is all about, and the larger the woofer, the more effortlessly it will reproduce bass signals.

vpolineni · « **Reply #33 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 03:21 am »

tyson... thanks for the clarification. Can you recommend a good crossover for me if I go the VMPS Larger subwoofer (with megawoofers and soundcoat options) and a Crown K2 amp. While expensive, I think this would be a nice combination.. as stated earlier, I would like to crossover in the 35-40hz region. thanks again.

vpolineni · « **Reply #34 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 11:13 pm »

has anyone heard of vbt subwoofers?
www.vbtsubwoofers.com

their design seems interesting and I'd like to to get your opinions on whether or not it's a good design.
thanks.

Tyson · « **Reply #35 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 11:28 pm »

Many relatively small woofers can be tuned to play low (depending on their FS), but they will NOT play loud, and they will NOT go below 30hz with any authority. I've heard a lot of small woofered systems, and they do fine down to about 35hz or so, and then drop precipitously in performance below that. Realistic bass requires moving a lot of air, and large woofers do that with much greater ease than smaller woofers.

If you read the reviews of the vbt subs, you will see that they say just that, good to 30-35hz, and won't play real loud. IMO, systems like this are "woofers", not "subwoofers". If you're going to be crossing over below 50hz, this sub would be almost useless to you. . .

For a crossover, a good cheap one is the Paradigm X30, but a much better one is the Marchand XM9

doug s. · « **Reply #36 on:** 8 Sep 2003, 03:22 am »

yes, big woofers are really what's needed for good low-distortion, accurate, hi-spl, *low* bass. this *speed* issue is really a misnomer, imo - mebbe for marketers to sell more aesthetically appealing smaller boxes?

how fast can a 20hz soundwave be, anyways - it's too long... and, "speed" of a big driver is a function of how big a motor ass'y is driving it. which is why, for example, the vmps megawoofers use a magnet twice the size of the standard woofers...

doug s.

btw, re: x-overs, the marchand *is* an excellent unit - wery transparent & flexible. i really like mine!

however, (shameless plug!) if anyone needs a x-over that is every bit as transparent as the marchand, but totally inflexible, i have a db-systems x-over i'm not using, that i'd consider selling for a reasonable sum...

it actually retails for >$200 more than the xm9-LL, but i'll let it go cheap, due to its not being wery flexible - it's set at 100hz (24db/octave), has screwdriver-controlled pots in the back, & needs to be sent back to db systems for frequency changes, for ~$75. or, they'll send ya ~20 caps/resistors, w/instructions, for diy-ers... some folk tink this system-design approach to the x-over frequency makes the db-systems unit more transparent than the plug-in resistor board arrangement of the marchand, but if it is, my system &/or ears can't tell the difference!

but, if ya know 100hz is what ya need, & don't wanna try lotsa different monitors in yer system, requiring frequent adjustment of the wolume pots, this *is* an excellent performer...

Hantra · « **Reply #37 on:** 8 Sep 2003, 10:22 pm »

Quote

has anyone heard of vbt subwoofers?
www.vbtsubwoofers.com

I've heard the VBT subs, and I didn't like them. They seemed slow to me. Then again, I was listening with the Cain and Cain Abby's. Really cute though, but very pricey.

B

rosconey · « **Reply #38 on:** 8 Sep 2003, 11:03 pm »

vpolineni

just buy the dam sub(vmps large)

vpolineni · « **Reply #39 on:** 9 Sep 2003, 04:32 pm »

rosconey said:

Quote

just buy the dam sub(vmps large)

patience rosconey, the vmps is on my short list.. and you guys have sold me on it because initially I didn't want to mess with passive subs. regarding the vmps sub, what are the advantages/disadvantages of having passive radiators in the sub? I called kyle at acoustic-visions.com and he recommened the 15" adire tumult driver and no passive radiators-he felt they're more suited for home theater. My thiels have passive radiators...so it made me wonder-what are the pros/cons of using them for music?