Hey, I saw the famed Grado 'dance' yesterday....

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 22 Jul 2007, 07:05 pm »

...what the heck causes this with them?

I had never seen it before...I thought between a fluid damped tonearm, correct geometry and tracking force, clean records, and level playing surface and good isolation along with the van Alstine 'Longhorn' I would never see it. But, I done did yesterday

It was on a Paul Winter album called 'Callings'. Lots of whale, otter, dolphin sounds on the 2 disc set - along with pleasant folk music. The needle was just bouncing/hopping along in the groove - never have seen that before, but have read of the phenomenon.

I played another cartridge on the same disc after to make sure it wasn't vinyl related...and it tracked swell.

What is this due to - it's really strange to see it finally in play

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 08:39 pm »

Trackability comes first, my not-so-youg Padwan...

***

Wayner · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 08:47 pm »

I would guess the tracks you were playing had some incorrect RIAA equalization done to them, the power of the low frequencies bouncing the stylus right out of the groove. A touchy cartridge, like the Grado will certainly behave badly. Other "better tracking" cartridges could probaby track thru, but I wonder what the sound was like. I had an older record of earthquakes and ionsphere crackles that liked to throw the whole arm off the tracks.

I would suggest not playing that album anymore for fear of damaging the stylus.

That's my take, anyway.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 08:58 pm »

Im just curious. I own three Grados, including the platinum, master and the reference and I've
never had any trackability issues, nor do I find them "touchy" or hard to use at all, in fact quite
the opposite.

What am I doing that's different? Two of them are mounted on SME arms and one is on a Rega
RB1000. Good results with all!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 09:08 pm »

Quote from: Psychicanimal on 22 Jul 2007, 08:39 pm

Trackability comes first, my not-so-youg Padwan...
***

Nahhh - I wouldn't base my entire decision on that feature - especially as this is the very first time it has ever occurred...and I have played many challenging (for more dynamic, for instance) records with it previously. There is a wide range of issues the imperfect little cartridge is expected to perform...trackability is just one of them. It is darn important, but not paramount.

Jeff/TONEPUB...I'm going to play some organ music with it at some point and see if I can replicate it. I think it was the very deep, low frequency whale tones that did it.......an organ (Thus Spake Zarathustra, Bach Organ Music, etc) might just indicate where it's inadequacies lie.

Does anyone know a mechanical reason why it occurs at all...or why it might have occurred to me? I know Grado are no fans of 'damping' - they feel it robs the music of vitality - but is it in the lack of damping, relative to other brands, the cause of this phenomenon? This is the first instance of anything like this - I'm just trying to figure out how and why. I think it's a magnificent sounding cartridge on the other 200 or so albums played on it

btw, my Grado Green has a Shibata line stylus on it (grafted from an older Grado G1+). So, it's NOT the fault of the more common, bonded/bushed, cheapie Green elliptical stylus. The stylus is considerably upgraded over original

Toka · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 09:46 pm »

Grado use better styli as you move up the line (to motivate an upgrade?), and the upper-end models don't suffer nearly as much as the lower-end ones when it comes to tracking...I'd gladly pay double for something like the Gold if it had that nude stylus.

And like was mentioned above I too put a high premium on tracking ability (as well as surface noise). I don't care how 'magic' anything else is if it doesn't do job #1 correctly.

WEEZ · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 10:10 pm »

After years of using Grado carts, I've never experience the 'dance'. Try increasing the tracking force just a bit. See if that helps.

WEEZ

dsa220 · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 10:10 pm »

It sounds like runaway oscillation at a resonant frequency; what arm are you using with the Grado?

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 10:40 pm »

Quote from: Toka on 22 Jul 2007, 09:46 pm

Grado use better styli as you move up the line (to motivate an upgrade?), and the upper-end models don't suffer nearly as much as the lower-end ones when it comes to tracking...I'd gladly pay double for something like the Gold if it had that nude stylus.

And like was mentioned above I too put a high premium on tracking ability (as well as surface noise). I don't care how 'magic' anything else is if it doesn't do job #1 correctly.

I've previously used a Prestige Silver, in fact it's in storage here somewhere. All the Gold is is the top 5% of Silver production. I've seen my Silver dance like mad, so I don't believe the Silver or Gold are any less prone to do the dance than, say, the Green or Black. If the higher models are less prone, then the lower models must be really really bad.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 10:45 pm »

I never saw the 'dance' until yesterday...it was truly weird.

The arm is the captive one from the JVC QL-F6....a low-to-mid mass, S-shaped one typical of Japanese decks of it's era. Only this one is special as it has internal fluid damping...in both vertical and horizontal planes. It's been a stellar performer with all of my other 10 cartridges...and the Green up until yesterday. It did act most like oscillation...but has never before, or since with two other cartridges I fitted to it.

I find optimal tracking for it at about 1.55 grams, anti-skating about about 2/3 of that...I did raise it slightly to 1.6 grams to see, but it was still dancing away.

As mentioned, my Green is already upgraded with a (much thinner) cantilever and Shibata tip from a Grado G1+. It's the stylus shape (I don't know if it's nude of bonded, tho, but typically advanced styli are nude, not bonded/bushed) that Grado charges $800 or $1200 for now in their line (Master or Reference series)

I've heard enough technically excellent tracking AT cartridges that sounded no better than competent to put entire faith in tracking ability. For all I know the AT's might be 'neutral' and the Grado's colored...but I've run home from enough live music performances now and compared a few cartridges to it...and the Grado comes up most-like the performance each time

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 10:53 pm »

Possibly the rubber suspension parts deteriorating? That's all I can think of if it didn't do it before and it does it now. Mine did it all the time, in two different arms. It's the only cartridge I've ever had actual trouble with.

I'm done with Grado. In fact waiting for my rebuilt/upgraded Dynavector DV-20XH (line contact stylus/ruby cantilever) to return from The Soundsmith.

I have to admit, John, that your new Pickering looks interesting.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 11:10 pm »

Quote from: Nels Ferré on 22 Jul 2007, 10:53 pm

Possibly the rubber suspension parts deteriorating? That's all I can think of if it didn't do it before and it does it now. Mine did it all the time, in two different arms. It's the only cartridge I've ever had actual trouble with.

I have to admit, John, that your new Pickering looks interesting.

I guess it could be deteriorating suspension...except that I used it on another record right afterwards and there was no 'dance'

The Pickering is very honest for $250.00. I've yet to find (NOTE - does not mean I will NEVER find or that it does not exist) a moving coil that didn't sound 'spitty' and etched to me. The Pickering is very honest in the way of reproducing music...world class levels of resistance (more signal passes thru) and better than any MM or MI ever devised inductance values (for better transparency and treble reproduction than most MM/MI's).

I need to load it properly (higher than it is now), it may be holding it significantly back based on that alone. But, I also have the most expensive cartridge Pickering / Stanton ever offered in the CS-100 and it sound rather similarly family-sounding (a little smaller due to higher resistance levels, and a little less 'transparent' due to higher inductance). Talk about tracking - those two are about the best ever made and yet they are not the runaway best cartridges I own. So, tracking is but one issue to contend with for (all of them) naturally comprised phono cartridges.

That said, I've found the lowly Grado Green to be as or more enjoyable and do things that remind me of the live performance more often. It may only be euphonic coloration, but it's rather lovely sounding

Keith F. · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 11:44 pm »

Hello Chairguy,

I couldn't imagine what would cause this. So far, mine never has done this and up to now have never even heard of it.

As far as the Pickering. Have You ever been able to try those K&K Transformers?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Jul 2007, 11:55 pm »

Hey Keith,

Wayne of Bolder Cables graciously loaned me his K & K transformer...but it had left side solder issues and he hasn't found time to send back to me to try. It was my first stab at transformer step-ups so I was jazzed to try it

First time viewing the 'dance', too, I thought it was permanently banished between the Longhorn mod and having afluid damped arm in vertical and horizontal planes.

You don't have to search hard over at AudioAsylum to find members with the Grado 'Dance'

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=dance+grado&topic=&author=&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&forum=vinyl

Having known of the possibility of it before, my headshell has had lots of mass added to it - a Plast-i-Lator (a wad of Plast-i-Clay) between body and headshell and a little more Plast-i-Clay further towards the back of the headshell, too

John / TCG

Keith F. · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Jul 2007, 01:00 am »

Hey Chairguy,

I read some of those posts on the grado "dance". I gather then that the higher the compliance, the lower the effective mass of the arm the cartridge likes? Many of the guys added mass to their shells, as you did, to improve and even eliminate this trouble. All I can think is what others have said is must be a certain resonant frequency that starts the cantilever to vibrate.

Was wondering though, if adjusting that arm damping would 'tune it out'

Keith

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Jul 2007, 02:49 am »

Keith,

I have found, over time, that the Grado's like arm damping - and a lot of it. The general recommendation by JVC is to adjust the damping to the same level as VTF.....but the similar servo/damped arm from Denon recommends aligning the damping by compliance level (over 20 tends toward maximum damping...a far smarter recommendation I think is Denon's). The Grado definitely responds to higher damping rates.

That said, yesterday's 'Dance' was performed with maximum ('3') on the damping dial

So, it wasn't tuned out (tho, as it's the first time, it may have been tuned out on other records). It's all still more than a bit of a conundrum

One guy over at AA mentioned it only happened on his London records, and no others. Perhaps there is something in the way this record was cut ( Living Music...distributed by Windham Hill and A & M Records) that was a major no-no for the Grado

Either that or Mr. Grado Green liked the music so much that he decided to just dance to it a little

jpv · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 03:46 pm »

I didn't read the whole post so I don't know if it has been answered yet. I am having this problem. After going to a scoutmaster with the standard arm my Grado platinum. Mike from VPI said the cart is to lite for this arm. He said to apply 3-4 grams of mortite or clay to the head shell. I can also send $15.00 to them for a stainless steel weight to mount to the arm.

gooberdude · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 04:57 pm »

If anyone has the cardas sweep track LP, it'll make a Grado Gold dance like Milli Vanilli. the Gold does just fine tracking the Sweep Track, then at about the final 30 seconds it shimmies and shakes. Even when Longhorn'd my Gold would shake during the sweep track.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 05:30 pm »

GooberMatt, I'll have to try the Cardas sweep when I get home....will be interesting to see if I can re-produce it with the Longhorn, lots of mass in my headshell and a tonearm (light-to-mid mass) that is vertically and horizontally damped - supposedly to nearly eliminate any of those arm/cartridge mismatches

Strange indeed....

Wayner · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 09:53 pm »

I've often wondered if there isn't some tweaking going on during the master cutting. I've heard albums that were loud at the beginning only to mellow out later on. Was it recorded like this, did the artist take artistic liberties or did the record mastering guy fiddle with the controls after he started? I have to beleive there are some over-modulated record grooves on a lot of records we just have'nt come across yet. I wouldn't be too hard on the longhorn for not walking through this one, John.

Wayner