Hey, I saw the famed Grado 'dance' yesterday....

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 12:54 am »

Right after the Grado danced, I put my ADC TRX-1 on (I am told that it's mediocre performance will turn better after 100 hours, so I trust to hear sonic improvement over the next 75 hours). But, it tracked fine on the same record that Mr. Green hopped and danced on only minutes earlier. I didn't try any other cartridge among my 11, but I can conclusively point to one (with a line stylus like my Grado has) that didn't have issues.

So, certainly how the grooves were cut and record mastered has something to do with it, but the Grado flubbed where the ADC sailed thru on the same album.

I don't blame the Longhorn, I'm just really surprised it happened (damped tonearm properly massed-out and all) and trying to make sense of it...which I haven't as yet

gooberdude · « **Reply #21 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 03:30 pm »

I've never seen another cartridge dance like my Gold would... the 440MLa carves the grooves like its on rails compared to the Grado. that's really my only complaint of the Prestige series. seems like a design flaw - especially for a tt cartridge.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #22 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 04:35 pm »

Yeah, but except for this (admittedly) GIANT tracking issue it has...most other comparably priced cartridges sound broken next to the Grado when you have it in a damped arm of mid mass. Powerful bass, crystal clear midrange, (to my ears) correctly re-constructed treble and dynamics and width and depth to image. I have not found that on any comparably priced cartridge (the old ADC XLM Mk. III Improved comes closest to getting it right for cheap, but not quite)

That's the dang shame of this...I really thought I had the mis-tracking issue licked, too

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #23 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 05:57 pm »

Grados, if I remember correctly, are moving iron cartridges, not moving coil or moving magnet. Could the dance just be a resonance issue due to the different method of operation?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #24 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 06:05 pm »

I suppose near anything is possible....but, both models of ADC cartridges I own are also of 'Induced Magnet' (aka, Moving Iron) design and they track like glue. As did the old Bang & Olufsen MMC line of moving iron cartridges.

'Tis weird that it hopped as I've done everything textbook right to make sure they didn't/don't

Quote from: Nels Ferré on 25 Jul 2007, 05:57 pm

Grados, if I remember correctly, are moving iron cartridges, not moving coil or moving magnet. Could the dance just be a resonance issue due to the different method of operation?

WEEZ · « **Reply #25 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 06:43 pm »

If you do a search over at AA in the vinyl asylum, it seems the 'cure' is (1) gram of mass added to the headshell. But like I posted before, I've never experienced the phenomena myself....

WEEZ

note: the above is credited to hifitommy

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #26 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 06:55 pm »

Hell, I got at least a gram added with the Longhorn, Plast-i-lator (a 1/8" squidge of Plast-i-Clay between cartridge body and headshell - a very nice tweek for the Grado) and a bit more P-i-C towards the rear of the headshell. I would estimate, 2 grams or more (still can be balanced by the counterweight which has a generous range) and the Prestige series only weighs like 5 grams to start.

That's what is so weird about this....the foolproof (ha)) 'fixes' (additional mass, Longhorn and fully damped tonearm) were already in place and it still danced.

I need your WEEZling-sage advice desperately on further fixes

WEEZ · « **Reply #27 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 07:08 pm »

John, is it possible you have too much mass?

I've read all kinds of stuff regarding Grado ...like "use a featherweight arm"; "never use a Rega arm"; "Grados hum"; etc., etc.,...

Well, over the years, I've broken all the rules. I've used Grados on AR turntables. I've used Grados with Rega arms. I've used Grados on Rega 'tables. (my dad just put a Grado on his Planar 2) I've used 'em on Thorens, VPI, and SOTA.

Could be I'm just lucky

WEEZ

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #28 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 08:06 pm »

Quote from: WEEZ on 25 Jul 2007, 07:08 pm

John, is it possible you have too much mass?

WEEZ

Oh, wise and wonderful WEEZ: Could be....but, the arm itself is a light /middleweight one typical of Japanese arms of that era. So, it would only be weight in the headshell as too much; not the arm itself.

WEEZ · « **Reply #29 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 08:38 pm »

I give up.

Wayner · « **Reply #30 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 09:41 pm »

John,

Are you still running your Grado with the Plast-i-lator? If so, I think that is the source of the problem. When we first got into that last winter I thought it was a good idea. Now I think it's a bad idea. I did try it but didn't like the outcome. I think it is important that the arm absorb some of the vibration. I think your cartridge has nowhere to dissipate energy and just vibrates itself to death. Many new tone arm are coming out with composite materials that null out the bled off energy before it causes the cartridge to go into ultrasonic oscillations with out a place for unused energy to go.

Pickle that idea for a while. Maybe get rid of the plasticlay in between the cart and mounting plate and just put some inside the cavity of the headshell.

MY $.02 worth.

W

WEEZ · « **Reply #31 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 09:55 pm »

Wayner, you are probably onto something. That's what I was getting at when I said ..."too much mass".....in a previous post.

WEEZ

mfsoa · « **Reply #32 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 09:56 pm »

I used to use a Grado (MCX or MCV, something like that) years ago on my Maplenoll Athena. This TT had a high-mass air bearing tonearm. These carts would definitely jiggle around to the point that some LPs were not playable.

Sounded great but now I know that the arm was way too heavy for the high-compliance Grado.

Wayner · « **Reply #33 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 12:10 am »

I thought that the word "compliant" meant controllable. I guess when someone says their cartridge is compliant that the tone arm is the master, not the other way around. I agree with WEEZ and mfsoa (I think) that the Grado's require a spindley little tone arm so they can dance around all they want and then they are happy. The proof is that my Harmon Kardon T25 is more than happy with my Grado Gold Longhorn but the Empire wasn't as accommodating.

W

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #34 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 01:31 am »

Allright, I'll carve out the Plast-i-Lator when I get back from Florida this weekend and see if that's the ticket. I really thought it was a solid little tweek when I first did it (a little more solid foundation to the music), but Wayner might be dead on that it's a little too solid (especially as the arm is rather well damped with fluid in both planes) to track some demanding passages.

We'll give that a go....and I'll play the Cardas disc or the one that gave it fits in the first place.

Something tells me that's not it, but I've been known to be both dumb & dumber before

machine · « **Reply #35 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 02:19 am »

I saw my own dance when I setup my new Pickering XLZ/7500 on my new Sumko headshell with Litz wiring.

Was a real PITA to get the cartridge mounted, wires were not cooperating!!!

Put it on technics, balance out at 2.5 Grams (I too have spaced out and not included extra gram for pickering brush, even though I've used Pickering with brushes for years), and spin record...

Man that arm moved like a bat-of-of-hell into the center... re-adjust ant-iskating, same action.

Just got done building Piccolo to support this guy and I'm thinking - Oh Shit!

Take another look and see the cartridge wiring hanging down and getting caught on record, few adjustments and all works as it should...

Sweet sound, love your ongoing critique about your quest for Analog perfection TheChairGuy!

Remember boys and girls - optimal results occur when your head is out of your a..!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #36 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 02:34 am »

I'm so glad you took the plunge on that Pickering, machine

I have someone to corroborate now on it...I haven't heard on anyone else on this board taking the plunge on it. For $250.00, there's not a lot of new low output moving coils you can buy at that price (the Denon DL103R and ATOC9ML/II come to mind as competitors at the price level).

I'm not sure how much more comfortable I am over this price on a very wearable item like a phono cartridge...I find mental resistance anytime I think over $300.00

lcrim · « **Reply #37 on:** 30 Jul 2007, 03:19 pm »

I just returned from vacation and had no internet access for a week or so.
The fact that there is so much comment about this resonance induced issue but absolutely no attempt was made to play a test record to determine the frequency involved is puzzleing and at least to me, somewhat baffleing. The low level physics involved in matching tonearm mass to cartridge compliance seem to be ignored by many here. There is this enormous, complex theorizing about the electrical properties of MM vs MC cartridges on the one hand and a simple physical test is not even attempted in this case. I would kind of like to know how this effect was created if for no other reason than to avoid it. In addition, it seems very peculiar if the conditions were as described.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #38 on:** 30 Jul 2007, 05:42 pm »

Larry, I was away in Florida the whole time this topic ran on...got back Friday morning at 1:30AM and didn't have any time at all this weekend to look further into the issue.

What seemed like the most likely avenue to pursue was to remove some mass from the headshell and try the experiment again. No time to do so - BIG doin's at work this week

hurdy_gurdyman · « **Reply #39 on:** 1 Aug 2007, 06:47 pm »

I've been reading this thread with interest, as I'm a big Grado fan (lower cost ones). I've used a Grado Black for many years, liking it's sound better than an ADC-LXM, Shure 91E and a lower cost Audio-Technica (can't remember the model) I have. I have an old Dual 1019, 1229, an AX-XA and a Denon DP-75 with a custom mounted VM Professional arm mounted on the after-market heavy floating sub-chassis plinth. The Grado Black performed great on all but the AR-XA, which skipped bad on any nasty record I played.
I recently bought a Grado Blue. I just installed this recently in an Infinity Black Widow. This is about as low mass of an arm as it gets (and no damping fluid). I don't have a Longhorn for it yet (plan on making one). I emailed Grado and asked about compatibility, and they said this is last tonearm they'd recommend(they recommend around 14 gram arm). However, it is tracking absolutely wonderful! It tracks every torture record I own as well as anything I've had yet. No skipping or dancing. I've heard forum recommendations ranging from use low mass arms with Grado to recommending high mass arm. Not sure why, but the low mass Black Widow seems to be doing great. Maybe something besides arm mass or damping is going on with the Grado dance?

Dave

My turntable>
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/photos/thumbnails.php?album=34