[Doublej]

Why don't more manufacturers have speakers designed to used against the wall like these Sjöfn speakers.

http://blog.stereophile.com/he2007/051607sjofn/

The problem with these Sjöfn's is there finish is merely garage friendly.

[JLM]

Good question.  The best reason is that depth of soundstage is pretty well lost.

Some examples of speakers that are meant to be placed against the wall can be found.  Some surround sound speakers and Allison speakers.  Speakers with top firing midwoofers and the little TBI diamonds are relatively insensitive to nearby walls.  Subwoofers often work best near walls/corners.  And of course the grand daddy speaker to use walls are Klipschhorns.  With the advent of stereo, Klipschhorn sales went down as in the real world few rooms have two "good" adjoining corners that would be a good and proper distance apart (thus the Klipsch Cornwall speaker was introduced to fill in the center stage in large rooms).  After all how many people "need" three large 104 dB/w/m speakers in their room or would know how to feed them properly?

[Scott F.]

After all how many people "need" three large 104 dB/w/m speakers in their room or would know how to feed them properly?

I do, I do 

 

[Russell Dawkins]

I'll compromise and take two, (please).

[mateo]

North Acoustics does this:

http://www.northacoustics.com

I'm sorely tempted...

[KCI-JohnP]

I think the Ohm Walsh speakers are designed to sit very close to the wall aren't they?

[Bill Baker]

 I think there are actually many speakers that can and will work closer to the wall. The reason most "recommend" have them out further is for soundtaging and imaging as mentioned. I would say the thing to look for is a front mounted port.

 Audio Note actually recommends positioning close to wall and even corners for bass reinforcement which would work with just about any speakers. Even those designed for close wall placement would open up if brought further into the room.

After all how many people "need" three large 104 dB/w/m speakers in their room or would know how to feed them properly?

I do, I do

 

 I sure do miss my big Usher D2 horns

[fiveoclockfriday]

The Ohm Walsh speakers do work well close to the walls from what I've heard, but even they benefit from being pulled out -- their omnidirectional design better fills the room with sound when there's some space behind them.

Given this is AC, we'd be remiss not to mention Ed Schilling's Horns. Many a pair physically touch the corners they sit in. Mine are about 8 inches out, but still "real world" for most people. Some people swear by the advances you get pulling them out further, but with the Horns specifically, I don't notice a huge difference.

[zako]

After 60 years the Klipschorn is still in production...That cant be said for many others....JBL also has a 60th anniversary unit Everest II... Both now can move there units away from the wall With built in corners.

[rollo]

Check out the Guru speaker for $1850 that is placed against the wall. It blew away the Editorial staff at Sterophile at the Home Entertainment Show as well as myself. We all kept looking for a hidden sub. The soundstage was wall to wall with depth unimaginable for a speaker placed against the wall.

  rollo

[TheChairGuy]

25 years ago there was a 3 pc. system from Triad that was made to mount on the wall (including small subwoofer).  It sounded rather seamless when you did - with good punch, no noted flabbiness and good imaging.  Not sure why it isn't/hasn't been done more often over the years

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=004&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=140137257500&rd=1&rd=1

[JoshK]

One can get around the imaging/soundstage issues somewhat it seems from using a controlled directivity design, like those with waveguide loaded tweeters and narrowing dispersion woofers (large woofer running higher in freq).  Then when placed near the wall the bass is forced to radiate in 2pi instead of 4pi and the power response is more even to boot. 

I think the imaging and soundstage grimlins are near reflections and diffractions in the few millisecond area, so attention to minimize their impact is needed.  But thick wool felt placed strategically on the baffle should have a great impact on controlling this.

[doug s.]

Check out the Guru speaker for $1850 that is placed against the wall. It blew away the Editorial staff at Sterophile at the Home Entertainment Show as well as myself. We all kept looking for a hidden sub. The soundstage was wall to wall with depth unimaginable for a speaker placed against the wall.

  rollo

this is the same speaker the original poster of this thread is referring to...   

doug s.

[macrojack]

ZU makes real world speakers if by that you mean speakers that perform at a level well above their asking price and function properly without making unreasonable power or placement demands on their owners.

Is that what you are looking for?

[doug s.]

ZU makes real world speakers if by that you mean speakers that perform at a level well above their asking price and function properly without making unreasonable power or placement demands on their owners.

Is that what you are looking for?

mebbe i am mistaken, but i think what is being asked for is speakers that retain exceptional soundstaging capabilities, even when placed directly against the rear wall of a listening area.  while i liked the zu druid monitors i auditioned, enough to actually purchase them, i think they still soundstage a lot better when out from the rear wall...

doug s.

[Vinnie R.]

I never had the chance to listen to them, but the Vienna Acoustics Schonberg Series of speakers are designed to be placed next to or mounted on the wall:
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/va/idx_shbg.htm

Able to provide the ultimate true-to-life sonic experience, SCHÖNBERG will bring the emotion of music in your home. Outstanding innovations and inventions transformed the task of developing optimum sound for near-wall-applications into an advantage; pure high-end sound performance without compromise.

I'm sure there are others like these out there by other companies...

[Duke]

As others have mentioned, placement up against a wall is detrimental to imaging - specifically, to depth of image.  Even with controlled radiation pattern speakers like JoshK suggests, the imaging is still significantly better when the speakers are pulled out into the room a little ways. 

I must disagree with Response Audio about one minor point.  A front-facing port does not necessarily make a speaker more wall-placement friendly.  Let me explain (I doubt any of this will be news to Response Audio - I'm just clarifying my position for others): 

The port's output will get maximal boundary reinforcement if it's located very close to the wall behind the speakers, and if the port is located less than one diameter from the wall then the tuning can actually be changed by the wall.   The ideal in my opinion would be a port that tunes the box lower than it would normally be tuned for placement out in the room, and that is accomplished by either increasing the length or decreasing the diameter of the port.  This is one of the nice things about a reflex box (at least from a designer's standpoint) - you can choose a very wide range of low frequency response shapes, so you can optimize for the speaker's acoustic environment if you know in advance what it will be.   So by tuning the box maybe a half-octave lower than normal and placing it near the wall, what would have been bass boom is transformed into bass extension.  And a rear-firing port takes maximal advantage of this.

Now what if the speaker is placed so close to the wall that the tuning of the rear-firing port is affected?  Not a problem - you see, the wall would lengthen the effective port length and lower the tuning frequency - which is the direction you want to go.

Some manufacturers (including yours truly) use a port system that allows the user to adjust the port length, thus tuning the speaker for its environment.  As mentioned, a long port will tune the speaker lower and is thus better suited for against the wall placement.   But unfortunately a long port is also more likely to introduce midrange coloration from residual backwave midrange energy off the back of the woofer's cone (think of talking through a cardboard tube).   By putting the port on the rear of the box, any midrange coloration that emerges from the port is less likely to be audible than if the port were on the front of the box.

Finally, what about the case where the port length is fixed?  Well then it might still be possible to change the tuning by inserting a longer pvc or cardboard "sleeve" into the port, and using a few wraps of electrical tape to get a good friction-fit.  This might not look real good cosmetically, and the midrange coloration issue exists, so once again we're better off with a rear-facing port.  So don't write off a fixed-port speaker - with a little ingenuity, you can still change the port length.  And, I'll let you in on a dirty little secret - the port length the designer chose may not be the optimum length for your room, with your speaker and listening position locations, and your amplifier and listening style. 

Now lest you assume that yours truly is the only one crazy enough to advocate a rear-firing port for a speaker placed up against a wall or even in a corner, I stole the idea from Audio Note.  Of course, maybe we're both crazy.

Duke

[JLM]

Frankly I've never believed that ports are nearly as sensitive to placement close to walls as most folks do.   Upon leaving the port and entering free space the back pressure is inversely proportional to the surface of a half sphere (2 Pi r^2) at any given distance. 


Example: a 3 inch diameter port (cross sectional area Pi r^2 = 3.14 x 1.5^2 =  7.1 sq. inches.

If the back of the speaker is 6 inches from the wall, the surface area of the half sphere (prior to touching the wall) would be = 2 x 3.14 x 6^2 = 226.1 sq. inches.

So the pressure at that boundary would be 7.1/226.1 = 0.03 or 3% as much as in the port. 

Using the same concept at 12 inches from the back wall, the boundary pressure would be less than 1% as much as in the port.

Note that using a distance much beyond 6 inches and the width of the speaker cabinet would cease to define the boundary resulting in the half sphere transitioning into a full sphere and further reducing the boundary effect.  In either case, the back pressure affect of the wall is negligible.


In the case of a wide baffled speaker located close to the wall, the boundary surface area would be somewhat higher and would be defined as a circular cylinder where the diameter is smaller than the width or height of the speaker.

Example: again using a 3 inch diameter port with cross sectional area of 7.1 sq. inches

If the back of the speaker is only 1.5 inches from the wall, the surface area of the half sphere (prior to touching the wall) would again be a half sphere = 2 x 3.14 x 2^2 = 25.1 sq. inches.

So the pressure at that boundary would be 7.1/25.1 = 0.28 or 28% as much as in the port.

If the speaker cabinet is 18 inches by 24 inches, the surface area at edge of the speaker would be (L + W) x 2 x distance away = (18 + 24) x 2 x 1.5 = 126 inches. 

So the pressure at that boundary would be 7.1/126 = 0.06 or 6% as much as in the port.

The actual "effective boundary" would be the circular cylinder mentioned above, something in between these two numbers (6% and 28%), and would act a bit (not to exagerate the point here) like a rear loaded horn.  Admittedly this is a fairly small effect, but a rather wide numeric range.  OTOH the number of cases of where this is used is fairly rare and I'd defer to Duke's post (and Audio Note) for further guidance.

[smargo]

ZU makes real world speakers if by that you mean speakers that perform at a level well above their asking price and function properly without making unreasonable power or placement demands on their owners.

Is that what you are looking for?

mebbe i am mistaken, but i think what is being asked for is speakers that retain exceptional soundstaging capabilities, even when placed directly against the rear wall of a listening area.  while i liked the zu druid monitors i auditioned, enough to actually purchase them, i think they still soundstage a lot better when out from the rear wall...

doug s.

Thanks doug - for a sensible answer about the zu druid - im not sure what macrojack was implying

[macrojack]

Sorry for misunderstanding. I took "real world" to mean common sense rather than quirky or inconvenient.
As for soundstaging -- isn't it true that every speaker will image better and provide better depth of field when moved away from the wall behind it? What I meant to say is that the ZU speakers provide a good soundstage even when placed near to the rear wall. I wasn't saying that they are at their best under those circumstances. I have Definitions now but I used to have Druids and I keep mine pretty close to the rear wall with wonderful results. Others, including our own Mike Smith, have reported similar results.

If the OP has no option to move his speakers away from the front wall, then I imagine he's asking for suggestions as to what will work well given that restriction.