Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?

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Brett Buck

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #20 on: 22 Aug 2007, 10:13 pm »
So to say that it's best paired with a "romantic" amp is simply ludicrous.

   In that sense "It lacked the harmonic warmth and liquidity that characterize romantic tube sound" is an excellent review, although it wasn't intended to be complimentary.

   Brett

TONEPUB

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #21 on: 22 Aug 2007, 10:15 pm »
This is exactly why I don't even bother with such tripe.  A pre-amplifiers job is exactly that--to pre-amplify.  It's not to change the sound, but faithfully render the sound exactly as it is recorded on the source. 

So to say that it's best paired with a "romantic" amp is simply ludicrous.  (What the heck does "romantic" sound like, anyway?)  The gear either faithfully renders the source material, or it does not.  And if you want it to add distortion, then just go ahead and say so.  But relative to this review, the reviewer is confusing an issue of equalization and added harmonic distortion (which for him, is personal preference) rather than that of simple pre-amplification.  I wonder if the author reviews his equalizers as if they were pre-amplifiers?  I get the feeling that the reviewer would opt for buying special anti-vibration-stones at $50 a pop to improve his system, rather than moving this loudspeakers to their most optimized and proper room placement (for free).

Why do so many of us actually fall for this snake-oil hogwash? 

To me, HP (and his golden ears) comes across as a tweako cultist nut.  This reviewer--no different.  Most of the "hi-fi" press is nothing more than paid advertisements, yellow journalism, or sheer make-believe quackery.  I've always been on Team Aczel anyway.

Please explain how mr. Aczel is any less of a cult than Harry Pearson...

HP claims to be able to hear minute differences in things, while mr. A says there is no difference between components and he's always coming up with his little "rules" to live by.

While there has always been a fair share of snake oil in the high end industry, there is also a fair share of people out there that are scientists and engineers (some of which are even musicians as well)

We have an EEE and a PhD in physics on our staff (that is also an accomplished classical musician as well) and he admits that when in the lab, the measurements do not always document what a component will or will not do.  We also have a board certified audiologist who says the same thing.

Personally, I think every hifi component has it's own signature sound (or personality, or whatever you want to call it).  Every time you pass a signal through anything, it changes and hence is not exactly what went in the front end.  There is a lot more distortion and color used in the recording chain most places then even most mid fi gear, so getting to hear a perfectly accurate anything is pretty tough.
There is not one component out there that reproduces the source material completely faithfully.  Really, unless you are listening to someone play a Piano, or any other instrument or voice, can capture it perfectly and then play it back immediately to compare, you have no way of knowing how true to the source it is.  Having a library of master tapes would be a start in the right direction, but no one has that either.

The only way an audio review can really be helpful to anyone is if you agree with his taste in music and his perception of recorded sound.  If you read a review, investigate the component for yourself and draw a reasonably close assessment, it works.  If it doesn't, it falls down.

All that any of us can do on the best day is to describe the product as accurately as possible and help you find the gear you want.  Even then, it can fall short of what is needed.

Even when we do a great job, there are still plenty of naysayers, because on top of everything, most people percieve sound differently, as well as having different priorities for what a system should do or not do.  Example:  Put 10 people that are interested in audio in a room and I guarantee they will all like something different.  One wants room shattering bass, the other wants imaging, another dynamics, etc. etc.  One person loves mini monitors and hates panels, etc etc.  And we haven't even touched on digital vs. analog.

So if you have a better way to do it, I've got a job opening for you...

The truth is some where between both camps.  And I'm looking for it every day.

Wayner

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #22 on: 22 Aug 2007, 10:15 pm »
My romantic gear has long red hair, well endowed and likes to listen to the neutrality of the T8 preamp though our also neutral 170ex with me. We listen to vinyl together through the T8 and I can assure anyone that it is not "grainy" in any way, shape or form. We have hundreds of hours logged, listening to a verity of music (mostly vinly, but occasionally CDs) and have had emotional experiences listening to the music. That's when you turn your cheek away from your mate so she doesn't see you wiping your eyes dry. When equipment can make you react like that, the equipment has vanished. You are totally connected to the music. That my friends, is why I enjoy AVA. Screw the review from the Absolute ...I just gave you one. And I stand by it.

W

rustneversleeps

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #23 on: 23 Aug 2007, 12:26 am »
Stereophile reviewers been getting a hard-on for something called "HiFi tuning fuse" made in Germany, of course, has to be foregn. A $60 ceramic fuse that would do wonder to the sound. It's just a ceramic fuse, but of course both ends are gold plated.

That's the kind of shit that they are jamming into the brain of the general public, a fuse can make your audio equipment sound better, I guess fancy good sounding cable technology has been saturated.

What's next?

modular747

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #24 on: 23 Aug 2007, 01:02 am »
That $60 fuse is crap.  You have to spend at least $800 for one that is both romantic and defines the vertical soundspace.

denjo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #25 on: 23 Aug 2007, 01:18 am »
Living and tweaking with a system takes a lot of time, patience and energy! Given their schedule of equipment to test and review, I wonder how much time reviewers spend to ensure that the system they are reviewing is performing at its best, synergising with the various equipment and such. I take months - and sometimes years - to fiddle here and there and every time I think I have reached the limit, I give throw in one last change and usually that is all that is needed to make the system sing!


gjs_cds

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #26 on: 23 Aug 2007, 02:10 am »
TonePub:

We’re certainly not going to solve this age old debate in a single post, and it is my belief that if a (hifi) client is happy doing what they’re doing--then so be it.  If it makes someone happy to use magic bricks, green pens, and a pre-amp with a “personality”--then so be it.  Enjoy the journey...

But I think you’re mis-representing Aczel’s position.  When I read his articles, I see him as an inductive empiricist, rather than a deductive rationalist.  What I take from his contributions is that psycho-acoustics, cognitive dissonance and the expectancy effect must be taken into account when reviewing equipment.  The preservation of internal and external validity really does demand a systematic, controlled, amoral, empirical, public and critical evaluation.  (These are the basic tenants of true science.  Anything less is pseudoscience, and falls into the dogma, prejudice, and uninterpretable results.) 

So what I take from Aczel is the employment of the scientific method in HiFi reviews.  If you’re going to compare amp A vs. amp B, do so in a double blind fashion; and do so when the loudness is within .1 dB from each other.  If you’re going to review cables, do so in a double blind format.  If you’re going to test the sound of capacitors or resistors, do so in a double blind format.  If the DC-area speaker-building DIY club can do this in our spare time, then I find it perplexing why professionals cannot maintain the same standards.

(And for the record, I am a researcher with a PhD in speech and acoustic sciences.  I’m also an avid speaker builder.  I’m not saying this to try and give my perspective more or less credibility, but simply to account for my perspective.  I value science rather than made-up rhetoric that cannot be operationally defined, such as labeling a sound as “romantic”, “liquid”, or “harmonic”.)

Brett Buck

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #27 on: 23 Aug 2007, 02:41 am »
Stereophile reviewers been getting a hard-on for something called "HiFi tuning fuse" made in Germany, of course, has to be foregn. A $60 ceramic fuse that would do wonder to the sound. It's just a ceramic fuse, but of course both ends are gold plated.

    Of course you have to cryo-treat it or it's really grainy, not in air, and insouciant in the upper midrange.

    I'm still looking for some of that "good sounding" mercury for my mercury-filled interconnects. Can somebody hook me up?

    Brett

markC

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #28 on: 23 Aug 2007, 03:08 am »
Go fishing. :cry:

modular747

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #29 on: 23 Aug 2007, 03:26 am »
Don't forget that swordfish mercury is overly analytic and detached from the music compared to albacore mercury.

richidoo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #30 on: 23 Aug 2007, 04:37 am »
I interpretted the comment about pairing T8 with a romantic amplifier to imply that if you cover up the T8s grainy tone with .5% 2nd order distortion you be able to "relax" and enjoy with your congac and pipe. I can do that with Bose WAVE. I'm not spending enough money to buy a good used 93 corrolla so that I can relax and fall asleep, or to have the beautiful musical details obscured by distortion. I wanna fly to the moon with this thing!

I don't think Olsher is a hack, so I put some value into this review. My experience with sovtek small tubes is that they often sound flat and grainy. I was dissappointed that Olsher didn't show off his vintage tube knowledge and swap in a pair of old Russian military 6N1Ps and if positive change, report it in a sidebar. That's the kind of fresh, fun reporting that TAS claims to be pursuing, but it was a missed opportunity here. Frank's comments in this forum don't reveal him to be a tube swapping nut, so maybe commenting on tube options was not the best choice for everybody concerned. With the AT7 version the stock JJs could hardly be improved upon. I'm not so sure about 6N1P, since sovtek is only current production tube available. I still think it must be plenty good enough for Frank to have chosen it over the excellent JJ 12AT7. No doubt Frank's and Dicks' listening methods and preferences are significantly different.

For myself, I will test my bias against sovtek small tubes by swapping in some vintage and more recent SED 6N1Ps. If the sovteks sound awesome, all the better, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are outdone by true Svetlana's or MiG radar tubes.  :D

Olsher uses the Altmann Attraction DAC. Consequently his ear is attuned to super smooth, grain free tone, and will pick up any tonal discrepancies more easily than if he were accustomed to a normal "reference" source.
Good thread! Thanks
Rich

martyo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #31 on: 23 Aug 2007, 08:53 am »
The phono section still uses the ECC-81 JJ's and I believe that is where the supposed graininess was heard. I don't have a phono section, but I've never heard the grainy reference before, while it is certainly true Frank's gear doesn't sound like "vintage tube gear". :dunno:

mark funk

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #32 on: 23 Aug 2007, 09:56 am »
Martyo, The T8 uses ECC83-12AX7 tubes in the phono section not ECC81-12AT7s :smoke:

martyo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #33 on: 23 Aug 2007, 11:22 am »
Quote
Martyo, The T8 uses ECC83-12AX7 tubes in the phono section not ECC81-12AT7s :smoke:


Thank's for the correction.

Toka

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #34 on: 23 Aug 2007, 12:48 pm »
Aren't all 6N1P tubes made in the same factory, regardless of branding? Maybe that wasn't the case in the past, but I believe it is now...either way, the "grain" comment in the review was in reference to the phono section, which doesn't apply to those tubes anyway (EDIT: martyo beat me to it).

weirdo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #35 on: 23 Aug 2007, 06:20 pm »
 I think the reviewer wanted the preamp to sound like an all-original Dynaco Pas with 10 year old tubes in it. Most modern tube gear does not sound that way, nor should it. Also, what the hell is grainy? I wish somebody would make a CD with grainy/romantic/adjacent note resoloution/attack and various forms of "soundstaging" on it. Gotta go put my 60.00 fuses in. 

gjs_cds

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #36 on: 23 Aug 2007, 07:29 pm »
I think the reviewer wanted the preamp to sound like an all-original Dynaco Pas with 10 year old tubes in it. Most modern tube gear does not sound that way, nor should it. Also, what the hell is grainy? I wish somebody would make a CD with grainy/romantic/adjacent note resolution/attack and various forms of "soundstaging" on it. Gotta go put my 60.00 fuses in. 

You don't have golden ears.  Obviously!

When I was doing a double-blind cap test in the DC area Speaker Builder DIY group, I heard someone demonstrate "grainy" to me.  And the thing is, I didn't hear "grain", but rather "needlessly bright."  So truth be told, I don't know what these words mean either, as they cannot be defined.    (And for what it's worth, while people could differentiate between the sound of caps, they couldn't consistently identify Cap A vs. Cap B worth a damn.  I think only 1 in 12 could hit the 70% correct ID mark.  Most others were in the 30% to 40%, i.e., less than chance.)

However, you'll find that there's a large contingent that "know" what these words mean, provided you don't directly ask them.  :)

And FWTW, I compared 16 bit recordings vs. 24 bit recordings, I think I heard what "resolution" means... which to me, simply sounded more "natural" (i.e., closer to the source, which is live unplugged performances.)
« Last Edit: 23 Aug 2007, 09:15 pm by gjs_cds »

mark funk

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #37 on: 23 Aug 2007, 10:01 pm »
Yes, ALL 6N1P valves are made in the same plant! They cost about 6or7 $ each, so don't pay 20or30$ per tube no matter what name is on them! I have been looking for NOS 6N1Ps and kind find none. As for fuses Buss makes some nice ones for 50cents or so, but sorry no gold ends. Oh no got to go down for cover its a BIG storm here right now all the scrins are on the rain is blowing side ways about 70or80mph (Chicago) :smoke:

stereocilia

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #38 on: 24 Aug 2007, 01:06 am »

Regarding "grainy":  I think of the sound of the fake cymbals at the beginning of the song Idioteque by Radiohead from the album Kid A as "grainy."

TONEPUB

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #39 on: 24 Aug 2007, 02:59 am »
I think grainy to me, tends to mean a lack of resolution.

It's kind of like taking a picture on 400 film instead of 100.
The details and highlights are there, but the gradations of
tone are not.

That's what I'm hearing when I call something grainy.

Not relaxed in a way that a natural musical instrument is...

Some of it is distortion related and the Radiohead reference
is excellent.