Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?

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Ryerse Rocks

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #40 on: 24 Aug 2007, 07:55 pm »
It seems to me that a lot of audiophiles (me included) are hyper sensitive to any criticism about his equipment. If a review is positive, it makes us feel that we made a good, informed purchace, but if it is bad, then of course the reviewer has no idea what he is talking about. Maybe looked at objectively, the product under review is really no better or worse than any other. A linear device such as a preamp has been more or less perfected. There isn't a hell of a lot of difference between any low distortion amplifying device unless it was designed for a specific sound - deviations from a flat response for instance. So relax and enjoy what you have.

martyo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #41 on: 24 Aug 2007, 08:08 pm »
Quote
It seems to me that a lot of audiophiles (me included) are hyper sensitive to any criticism about his equipment. If a review is positive, it makes us feel that we made a good, informed purchase, but if it is bad, then of course the reviewer has no idea what he is talking about.

You're right about this for some people.

Quote
Maybe looked at objectively, the product under review is really no better or worse than any other. A linear device such as a preamp has been more or less perfected. There isn't a hell of a lot of difference between any low distortion amplifying device unless it was designed for a specific sound - deviations from a flat response for instance.

I know you're mistaken here.  :o

Quote
So relax and enjoy what you have

This is sound( :icon_lol:) advice.

Welcome!   :)

richidoo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #42 on: 24 Aug 2007, 10:36 pm »
Sovtek tubes are the only new ones sold in US, but Svetlana (SED) still makes them, but they are not sold here. These are not the same tube, the Svet is SED St petersburg flying C, etc, the sovtek is New Sensor who licenses the trademark Svetlana for use in US only. I also have a set of older vintage tubes from Russian military radio.

T8 arrived today, I have tried the three tubes in it, and I prefer them in this order:
Svetlana
Vintage
Sovtek 

The difference between the Svet and sovtek is noticable. I looked online for more Svetlana SED tubes, but I can't find them from a reputable dealer yet. The ones I have are borrowed.
Rich

Wayner

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #43 on: 24 Aug 2007, 10:54 pm »
richidoo,

we need a review, where is it man?

 aa

richidoo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #44 on: 25 Aug 2007, 03:31 am »
Wayner, you're killing me! haha   How bout a "Day One" mini review? Sounds pretty good so far, clear, open, huge soundstage, very exciting sound. Sounds great on rock, pop, country, jazz, r&b, but just a little too exciting for chamber music that I mostly listen to. I'm hoping it's gonna mellow a little with a few more hours. The tube swap helped. I hope it comes around, I really like this preamp! Every feature I want, and built to last forever. The inside is just beautiful, like somebody really cared to make it absolutely perfect. Nice job AVA! It looks a lot better in person than in the pictures. Looking forward to trying some LPs tomorrow. Ooh, and the headphone amp is great. It is a dry ss sound that I like, lightning fast, plenty of air and pristine treble, very nice with my Senn 280s. Frank calls it "exquisite" and I agree. That's all for now :)
Rich

richidoo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #45 on: 25 Aug 2007, 01:18 pm »
Thanks, Brian!

avahifi

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #46 on: 25 Aug 2007, 01:31 pm »
Just one comment on the "grainy phono" review thoughts.

The phono section is to a great extent very similar to what we have been building into all our vacuum tube preamps for the last 20 years (and none of which have ever had a "grainy" response from anyone ever), except,

The T8 has a vastly better high voltage power supply, with separate active high speed analog high voltage regulators for each plate of each tube.  This eliminates a huge amount of interaction and compression.  The phono tubes we supply are JJ Electronic ECC83s, European equivalents to the 12AX7, and are as sweet sounding and low noise as we can find at a rational price with good availability.  Again, never any grainy complaints about these tubes.  So I cannot understand how taking a proven good circuit design and making it a lot better with drastically better power supplies can make anything grainy.  By the way, I hate "grainy".  Oh well.

Frank Van Alstine

Wayner

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #47 on: 25 Aug 2007, 02:47 pm »
I would inject here that who says the folks at Absolute Sound had their Grados tracking perfectly? A poor table setup will not produce good results with any phono pre.

W :o

TONEPUB

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #48 on: 25 Aug 2007, 03:06 pm »
It seems to me that a lot of audiophiles (me included) are hyper sensitive to any criticism about his equipment. If a review is positive, it makes us feel that we made a good, informed purchace, but if it is bad, then of course the reviewer has no idea what he is talking about. Maybe looked at objectively, the product under review is really no better or worse than any other. A linear device such as a preamp has been more or less perfected. There isn't a hell of a lot of difference between any low distortion amplifying device unless it was designed for a specific sound - deviations from a flat response for instance. So relax and enjoy what you have.

This is a very astute observation....

What some people lose sight of (myself included) is that when you are reviewing reasonably priced gear like the AVA stuff, you can't compare it to the cost no object gear that a reviewer may be fortunate enough to have in their reference system and then put it down.

I've never owned any AVA gear, but have heard it a number of places and found it to be indeed top shelf for what it is and even comparing it to somewhat more expensive gear, because of Franks philosophy of putting the money into the circuitry, not a fancy cabinet or remote control.  I wish there were more mfrs that did this, because not everyone cares about cosmetics, they just want the best sound they can get for the money.

Without putting it in perspective, it always comes off as being elitist.

Hey, I got torqued when Harry Pearson called my C-J Premier 350 "grainy and rolled off" until at the end of the article he was comparing it to his reference Burmeister amp that cost 85 grand!  I got a chance to hear the Burmeister at a very wealthy freinds house, and I still liked my amp better!

So, it's all relative....

As long as you are digging your system, that's all that matters!

People like Frank don't stay in business as long as they have if they
weren't on to something good!


drew54

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #49 on: 1 Oct 2007, 05:05 pm »
Hey guys,

I've had my small box T8 for over a year now.  Chose it after an in house shoot-out with an older CAT SL1, modded ARC SP6 (my old unit) and a Copland.  I picked the T8 because it does much of what is noted in the TAS review- its a bit more forward, less polite than the Copland or ARC, more like real music.  It has great extension top and bottom.  In comparison to the CAT, it is less detailed (I think the CAT a little too revealing), less quiet, less dynamic, but...  I couldnt live with the volume control on the CAT, and its strong sonic footprint either fits or doesnt fit with the rest of the system.  Very much a matter of taste.

Also-
I spent some time in the last two weeks listening to different phono stages, including the T8, a new CAT (not in my house) and two different Hagermans (trumpet and cornet).   

I learned that:
1. The CAT phono stage is hard to beat, making it a very expensive phono solution.

2. The Hagerman Cornet was extremely sensitive to tube changes- in fact, when we changed the 12AU7 in the front of the Cornet from one brand to another, missing bass mysteriously reappeared.  This was a night and day difference.

3. Changing 12AX7's in the T8 also made a big difference.  NOS tubes (mismatched) made the sound thru the phono section smoother.  I liked it better, sounded more refined than with the orig tubes.

Questions:
Which tubes are for the phono?  The ones marked JJ or the unlabeled 12AX7s?  We tried swapping out the unlabeled tubes, which are closer physically to the phono input.

Are all four tubes 12AX7 types?

What do you guys recommend re replacements?  In my ARC, I thought the Sovtek LPS were as good as anything else I could borrow.  Your opinions welcome.

Thanks,
Drew. 

martyo

Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #50 on: 1 Oct 2007, 06:32 pm »
Drew,

12AX7's in the phono, 12AT7's in the line.

lazydays

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #51 on: 28 Oct 2007, 12:38 am »
Hmm... :scratch:

Only gave it one read through, but the reviewer was pleased overall with the unit, but "only as a linestage", as the phono stage was "grainy" with whatever Grado cart was used (can't remember which one...one of the woodies). Credit was given to the simple-yet-effective design, as well as the power regulation vis-a-vie the tubes. Wish I could remember more, but the bookstore is right next to the grocery store so I'll be able to pop in again and give it a more thorough once over (wish I had one of those spy-cam thingies to takes pics...). Also, the reviewer said it would be best with a "romantic" amp, as the T8 "wasn't tubey enough" (quotes estimated, gist the same).

I should add that while I interpreted it as a good review, I could imagine a lot of other people not being thrilled with it, as it wasn't didn't give the impression that the equipment was sprinkled with magic audio dust. Not that I wanted to read that, but still. I'm sure Frank will be able to offer a more thorough analysis, but if not I should get a chance to read it again within 5 days or so (running low on beer).  :green:

I got something to say here,
    I own the T8 phonostage, and I do have a comment on the "road test." Now I don't have a clue what the linestage sounds like, but with a good preamp (no brands implied here) you should not know it's there. If you can hear the way it sounds you gotta problem. Back to the T8 phonostage; I replaced my George Wright phono stage with the T8. Now many of you already know the Wright phono stages are nothing to be sneezed!
Very smooth and liquid in the way the handle music. Possibly a touch warm in the upper mid range, but I also like that. Before that it was a series of solid state phono stages that were OK if I was drunk. So I got this grand scheme of things and had Frank build me one. The sound was good right out of the box (hell I don't even have a clue what it looks like inside, and for all I know it may have a hamster in a squirrel cage in there). After maybe thirty hours of usage I think the bass was tighter, but not by a large margine. The upper mids are very airey and open (very open). Maybe not quite as warm as the Wright, but still most excellent (not by my ears alone but from everyone that's heard it). If I had one complaint about it (actually I have two), I think it might be just a tiny bit lean on female vocals. Now TAS where's all that grainy sound you wrote about? I know for a fact that mine ain't got none! If I wanted to hear a grainy sound I'd still be fooling around with that Quicksilver preamp. Now for the other complaint! Frank, I wish you'd do two things in the layout at the rear of the box. Move the power cord connections (switched) to the otherside of the rear so the phono cables wont be near it (I'm not having a problem) and make one an IEC receptical with the others having a place for a grounding lug built into the power cord. I never bothered you about this as I thought it to be extremely petty, so don't send anybody over to my place to break my legs.
     When I ordered my preamp I told Frank that I was a Grado junkie, and he said he'd set it up for me (thank you Frank). I also asked him to do a little bit of custom configuration for me, and he complied without a single "but why?" The first table and cartridge it was behind was my Final tool using a Graham Robin arm and a Denon D103 cartridge. Now I never could find a way to really get into the cartridge (just seemed dark and slow to me, but also not grainy). A couple weeks later I installed a Grado Reference Platnum, and it was a different world. Later I took the Final Tool down for a major upgrade (still down by the way), and put a Music Hall #5 in it's place. I have grown to hate that turntable even more by the day. Recently I went with the Consance Droplet 2.0 (or whatever they call it) and my Van Denhull modded SME IV tonearm. Also used his tonearm cable and the same old Grado cartridge. And there's still no grainy sound!!
Hey TAS do you want me to set your turntable up for you? With the Final Tool I used a Zu phono cable, and Synergistics IC's (absolutly no grainy sound in my system, and I mean ZERO). With the new table I used the Van Denhull phono cable and his tone arm wires. The IC's are Zu's. What was the difference? Like a ride on the Apollo Moon Rocket!
The Final Tool is probably a better turntable, but can't lay my hands on the pieces to make it work with the SME tonearm. Maybe the TAS needs to come over to my house and borrow my table for a couple weeks.
    Back to the T8 a minute. I'd love to see an addition of an internal steup transformer that could be switched from the rear. And maybe WBT connections (I know it's only money). This preamp is so quiet that you almost forget it's there (much quieter than the Wright). I truely believe that it's on the verge of running with the "big dogs." At about one third of the price (that's a good bit of sour mash whiskey). Maybe you should have gold plated the face plate and added five or six leds that do nothing!
    I stand behind what I posted here, and to let you guys know Frank didn't even offer me a good cigar!
gary

lazydays

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #52 on: 28 Oct 2007, 12:42 am »
I thought it was  pretty negative review, just dressed up in typical TAS politically correct disguise. It had me in a downer because I had ordered mine the day before!!  :lol:  A very wise man ;) calmed me down and reminded me of Olsher's known preference for the darker octal sound, and that I should decide with my own ears, which I intended to do anyway, but we like to feel in sync with the so called experts even if their taste is different.

I did not know about the mfg. response, thanks. I thought only Stereophile did that... I gotta look that up tonight! I am really looking fwd to hearing the T8 for myself.
Rich

If you wanta listen to mine, your welcome anytime. But you gotta bring your own cigars and bottle.
gary

lazydays

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #53 on: 28 Oct 2007, 12:44 am »
I don't think it was such a bad review as much as it made no sense. On the one hand "Image outlines were tightly focused
within a deep soundstage and fleshed out with palpable presence... Tonal character was also unchanged with a variety of program material, being consistently close to neutral in presentation. The bass range was neither ripe nor lean. The upper octaves were
well extended and lacking the brightness that some mistake for genuine detail and presence. This was a good thing" then on the other hand "It’s fair to say that the T8 did not sound like a vintage tube preamp, but more like a hybrid. It lacked the harmonic warmth and liquidity that characterize romantic tube sound." Should it be neutral or should it be romantic??

I have been auditioning my new T8 for about a week now and I have not heard any of the grain or brittleness that are referred to in the phono section. There is no mention of the recordings being used.

Bob

what you just posted is the correct deffinition of a good preamp. It must not have it's own sound.
gary

lazydays

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Re: Frank's T8 review in TAS...what happened?
« Reply #54 on: 28 Oct 2007, 12:50 am »
I think the reviewer wanted the preamp to sound like an all-original Dynaco Pas with 10 year old tubes in it. Most modern tube gear does not sound that way, nor should it. Also, what the hell is grainy? I wish somebody would make a CD with grainy/romantic/adjacent note resoloution/attack and various forms of "soundstaging" on it. Gotta go put my 60.00 fuses in. 

they do make that CD player. Listen to a Jolida CD100A with the Sylvania tubes.
gary