[Imperial]

I don't get involved in debates They never solve or prove anything.

I agree.
In the end it's all about the music!

There will always be someone out there, that just wanna pick a fight... Go figure!
That just want to be the prolonged hand of their high school teacher.

I was lucky! I had the best teachers! They did not say that what they learned us was the end of the road!
Even at engineering school, I was lucky! Same stuff there!

Teachers should really think what they do when the kids are in class! It's a shaping season...
You wanna give your student the ability to continue to learn new stuff after school!
Not just think that no other thing exist..than what they learned at school!

Yeah... just had to get that off my chest... 

Imperial

[NagysAudio]

Hi Bill,

     I have used the Vishay MKT 1822 capacitors in dozens of different audio components. However, primarily I have used them in amplifier circuitry and speaker crossover. As I mentioned before, I love the Hiquphon OWII tweeter. I mostly use a second crossover filter with a 6.8uF capacitor and a 0.39mH inductor. Plus a zobel filter! A lot of people skip the zobel on the tweeter and it's a big mistake. So... in this set up I have tried plugging in countless different capacitors. All I can say is that between the Vishays and virtually all audiophile capacitors, there's a huge difference. Once I heard the MKT 1822s in the circuit, I could not go back to anything else.

I have also used them in amplifier circuitry. My main amplifier design is a dual jfet input, bipolar voltage stage and mosfet output. Since mosfets sound very similar to tubes (but better in most cases) I don't do too much tube amp design anymore. With this type of design I can achieve a very high slew rate and frequency bandwidth into the 1-2 MGz region. That to me sounds better than any other amplifier design that I have heard or used. Also, this type of design eliminates coupling capacitors, so I use the Vishays mostly as bypass components. Power supply bypass, high frequency and oscillation control, etc. And again, they sound fantastic!

Norbert

[guest1632]

Hi Bill,

     I have used the Vishay MKT 1822 capacitors in dozens of different audio components. However, primarily I have used them in amplifier circuitry and speaker crossover. As I mentioned before, I love the Hiquphon OWII tweeter. I mostly use a second crossover filter with a 6.8uF capacitor and a 0.39mH inductor. Plus a zobel filter! A lot of people skip the zobel on the tweeter and it's a big mistake. So... in this set up I have tried plugging in countless different capacitors. All I can say is that between the Vishays and virtually all audiophile capacitors, there's a huge difference. Once I heard the MKT 1822s in the circuit, I could not go back to anything else.

I have also used them in amplifier circuitry. My main amplifier design is a dual jfet input, bipolar voltage stage and mosfet output. Since mosfets sound very similar to tubes (but better in most cases) I don't do too much tube amp design anymore. With this type of design I can achieve a very high slew rate and frequency bandwidth into the 1-2 MGz region. That to me sounds better than any other amplifier design that I have heard or used. Also, this type of design eliminates coupling capacitors, so I use the Vishays mostly as bypass components. Power supply bypass, high frequency and oscillation control, etc. And again, they sound fantastic!

Norbert

Hi Norbert,

Using these caps around bias circuits, are they more stable. I have an amp which was prebuilt as far as the circuit board goes, and was kinda dabbling with the idea of changing out the 5 electrolytics on each board. At the moment, I don't know the values, but was concerned about the durability of these caps over time.

Also, how would these function as regular power supply caps?  don't know if they have the correct values for such. The power supply that came with the kit has I think 5 4,700UF caps. Was at one time toying about using the Jensen T Caps.
The T foil caps from Jensen aren't cheap, and making my own supply with 5 of these would be ridiculously expensive.

Regards,
Ray Bronk

[PaulHilgeman]

Hi Bill,

     I have used the Vishay MKT 1822 capacitors in dozens of different audio components. However, primarily I have used them in amplifier circuitry and speaker crossover. As I mentioned before, I love the Hiquphon OWII tweeter. I mostly use a second crossover filter with a 6.8uF capacitor and a 0.39mH inductor. Plus a zobel filter! A lot of people skip the zobel on the tweeter and it's a big mistake. So... in this set up I have tried plugging in countless different capacitors. All I can say is that between the Vishays and virtually all audiophile capacitors, there's a huge difference. Once I heard the MKT 1822s in the circuit, I could not go back to anything else.

I have also used them in amplifier circuitry. My main amplifier design is a dual jfet input, bipolar voltage stage and mosfet output. Since mosfets sound very similar to tubes (but better in most cases) I don't do too much tube amp design anymore. With this type of design I can achieve a very high slew rate and frequency bandwidth into the 1-2 MGz region. That to me sounds better than any other amplifier design that I have heard or used. Also, this type of design eliminates coupling capacitors, so I use the Vishays mostly as bypass components. Power supply bypass, high frequency and oscillation control, etc. And again, they sound fantastic!

Norbert

Hey Norbert,

When comparing caps in a speaker crossover it is absolutely necessary to match very very closely in value, and not to do it using by-pass caps if possible.  Typically when trying new caps I order 20 of them to try to find a perfect match in value before auditioning.  I usually shoot for .1 to .2% or a variation between values of no greater than 0.07uF in your case.  Even small changes like this can have a large impact of the most important and easy to hear thing... tonal balance.  Small shifts in the value of the cap can cause wide (1-2 octave) variations of as small as 0.25dB.  While this might seem small, center it at 2000Hz and it will make a big difference.

I think you are near me.  If you have a few of these and other caps I would be happy to match them for you.

-Paul

[Vapor Audio]

I'll order a few of these to try out, I've been interested in trying some various Vishay's since reading Tony Gee's cap testing page - http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

I'm also going to try some of the Vishay MKP series stuff too.

[NagysAudio]

Ray Bronk -

There's nothing wrong with using electrolytic caps, just bypass them with a 1uF film cap.

The absolute very BEST electrolytic capacitors are made by Vishay BC components. They were used to be made by Philips. They are aluminum electrolytic caps. They are covered in a blue plastic film and have axial leads. You can buy them at www.newark.com Again, the very best electrolytic caps I've ever used. In solid state amplifiers, power supply bypassing is a must! To protect against oscillation, etc. For example, if it's a mosfet output stage amplifier, the bypass caps need to be located as close to the mosfets as possible. I usually do it like this: 4700uF(electrolytic) + 47uF(electrolytic) + 1uF(film) + 0.1uF(film) This works for me! But it will vary from case to case.

Paul Hilgeman -

I almost always use standard part values in my circuit design. I don't use bypass caps in speaker crossovers. For the crossover, I usually match to within 0.1uF. I have fairly decent equipment, I could match them to 0.001uF if I wanted to.

TurboFC3S -

The MKP's are wonderful as well, but for some reason the MKT's sound better, even though they are of worse construction.

Norbert

[tonyptony]

What about Jensen 4-poles? I like the idea of decoupling the driving side from the load side.

[NagysAudio]

Hi Tony,

I have not done too much tube amplifier power supply capacitor evaluation. However, Jensen makes a quality product. But so does Mundorf, Black Gate, Solen, NOS paper in oil types, JJ, etc. I don't think it's that important which one you pick, as long as you have a quality schematic. Plus, you should bypass them with small film capacitors.

Also, you might want to try the company ASC. They have fantastic capacitors at great prices. They are also willing to custom make you just about anything you can imagine. And the people there are really friendly and helpful.

Norbert

[guest1632]

Hi Tony,

I have not done too much tube amplifier power supply capacitor evaluation. However, Jensen makes a quality product. But so does Mundorf, Black Gate, Solen, NOS paper in oil types, JJ, etc. I don't think it's that important which one you pick, as long as you have a quality schematic. Plus, you should bypass them with small film capacitors.

Also, you might want to try the company ASC. They have fantastic capacitors at great prices. They are also willing to custom make you just about anything you can imagine. And the people there are really friendly and helpful.

Norbert

Hi Norbert,

The Jensen 4 pole are excellent in power supplies. I am told they are fast. Unfortunately, they are not cheap. Great in Solid State gear too. Also, they don't need any bypassing.I have been told this by several individuals now.


Ray

[NagysAudio]

Hey Ray,

Well, the several individuals that you talked to must know nothing about solid state amplifiers! In tube amps, you can get away without bypassing the power caps, because tube amps have output transformers, etc. These amps are not prone to oscillation. But a high bandwidth solid state amp will oscillate and will not work properly if the power caps are not bypassed. Solid state amps must also have zobel filters on the output! Power supply capacitors are filter caps, so a large value capacitor will not prevent high frequency oscillation, even if it is of magic construction or high quality construction. It must be bypassed with a smaller value capacitor, i.e. 0.1uF.

Norbert

[john curl]

Nagy, that is only your opinion.  It might not work in every case.  It is important to trust one's ears, mostly when it comes to bypassing. 

[Lazz]

I've read the Epcos/Siemens Sikorel are supposed to be excellent.

[NagysAudio]

John, you gotta be kidding me!! Right? Show me a solid state amp where the power supply capacitors are NOT bypassed. You can used large value film caps instead of electrolytic capacitors and they will still need to be bypassed! If you don't bypass the capacitors, the amp will go into high frequency oscillation and fail, or just not perform correctly. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. Basic laws of physics and electronics cannot be broken.

[Vapor Audio]

John, you gotta be kidding me!! Right? Show me a solid state amp where the power supply capacitors are NOT bypassed. You can used large value film caps instead of electrolytic capacitors and they will still need to be bypassed! If you don't bypass the capacitors, the amp will go into high frequency oscillation and fail, or just not perform correctly. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. Basic laws of physics and electronics cannot be broken.

Whoa! 

[Bill Baker]

Whoa!

 That's what I said. Didn't like the direction in which this thread was heading which is why I deleted my previous post. I'll just sit back and watch now.

[guest1632]

Hey Ray,

Well, the several individuals that you talked to must know nothing about solid state amplifiers! In tube amps, you can get away without bypassing the power caps, because tube amps have output transformers, etc. These amps are not prone to oscillation. But a high bandwidth solid state amp will oscillate and will not work properly if the power caps are not bypassed. Solid state amps must also have zobel filters on the output! Power supply capacitors are filter caps, so a large value capacitor will not prevent high frequency oscillation, even if it is of magic construction or high quality construction. It must be bypassed with a smaller value capacitor, i.e. 0.1uF.

Norbert

Hi Norbert,

Ok, so pardon my stupidity here, or lack of knowledge, but I have always been under the info that bypassing electrolytics especially in power supplies is to help in the electrolytic leakage issue. A couple of the people I have been told about the Jensen are well respected in the audio industry. It is the nature of the cap's construction that bypassing is not necessary. I won't argue the issue here because I am going on those I trust. The other one is ... that one from England ... BNC? a "Tcap" is supposed to be even better than the Jensen 4 pole cap. anyway, enough hijacking of the thread. You're right though, in a typical supply, you should bypass the electrolytic caps.

Ray

[art]

John, you gotta be kidding me!! Right? Show me a solid state amp where the power supply capacitors are NOT bypassed. You can used large value film caps instead of electrolytic capacitors and they will still need to be bypassed! If you don't bypass the capacitors, the amp will go into high frequency oscillation and fail, or just not perform correctly. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. Basic laws of physics and electronics cannot be broken.

Really???

Bypassing a big can 'lytic at the cap itself, with who knows how many inches of wire to the active stages, is not going to suppress oscillations.

Sorry, that is basic physics.

Pat

[john curl]

Thanks Art, I could not have expressed it as well.

[SMc Audio]

I am concerned that there may be some confusion over the term "bypass" as used in this thread.  I use the term (in this context) to refer to multiple capacitors wired in parallel in the same physical location, or nearly so.  The purpose of this (at least within the realm of high-end audio) is to create a single, conjugate capacitor that outperforms ("sounds better than") any single cap in the same application.  The mix of caps is usually arrived at through a series of listening evaluations, so the process is mainly subjective.

On the other hand, stable circuit design often demands the use of "decoupling" caps located as close as possible to the circuit elements they are helping to stabilize.  These caps are often referred to as "local bypass" caps, and they are electrically in parallel with the main power supply caps.  While these may be considered "bypass" caps, they do not really fall into the category being discussed in this thread.  Of course, these local bypass caps may themselves be bypassed, but I digress....   

I design fairly wideband preamps and amps, and they are stable without the need for zobel loading networks.  I could remove all of the bypass caps in any of my designs and they would continue to operate perfectly.  I would not, however, consider removing the local decoupling caps.

Steve McCormack
designer, SMc Audio, McCormack Audio
www.SMcAudio.com

[TheChairGuy]

Interject: For all Industry Participants, that is those that have a commercial interest in audio, please read this as to requirements for sign-offs and the like at AudioCircle:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41871.0

SMc Audio, john curl, anybody else - as Industry Participants please comply to this so that everyone here 'knows where you're coming from' 

Mr. McCormack - it's a pleasure, an honor even (much as it is for John Curl and other luminaries to visit us here at our humble discussion forum) to host you here 

Regards,

John / TheChairGuy / Moderator - Audio Central