[NagysAudio]

I've been into audio for 11 plus years and I have heard dozens of capacitors. Everything from military specd, to audiophile grade. Ranging in price from just a few pennies to hundreds of dollars.

And the best capacitors that I have ever heard are Vishay. These are made in Germany by Vishay Roederstein to be exact, model number MKT 1822. They were previously know as the ERO capacitors. The MKT1822 is a box style timing capacitor, made out of metalized polyester. They range from 1000pF - 15.0uF and have voltages from 63vdc - 250vdc.

Most audiophiles will disagree because it goes against all audiophile grade logic. They don't have Teflon, copper foil, silver foil, polypropylene/foil design, silver leads, oil, etc. But what they have is what counts, absolutely stunning sound.

It is virtually vale free and grain free. I have never heard any other capacitor come close! They have incredible resolution and sparkle to the high frequency. The term "liquid" should have been invented for these caps. Plus they have to most un-electric midrange I have ever heard. The best part is that they are dirt cheap, a few bucks max for the larger values. And they work as well in speaker crossovers as they do as coupling or bypass capacitors in amplifiers, preamps, dacs, etc. Here's a list of some capacitors which I compared the MKT 1822's to.

AuriCap
Hovland
SCR Solen
Jensen
RelCap Audio Cap Theta
MultiCap RTX
MultiCap PPMFX
Russian Military Teflon High Voltage Types

[TONEPUB]

Just curious, what do you base your analysis on?

I'm all over finding a great inexpensive capacitor...

Again, I'm kind of curious that if these are so outstanding, why none
of the majors would not pick up on this instead of those expensive
teflon caps they now use!!

Sounds like you really are on to something, pretty cool!

[NagysAudio]

Well... the majors need something that they could boast about in their specs. Teflon and silver is exciting. Metalized polyester would be boring. Plus, if they used cheap polyesters, how would they explain the outrageous prices they charge for electronics these days?

I have used these caps in my amplifiers and speakers, using simple plug and play for comparison. I also use expensive Goldmund dacs, amplifiers and preamps in testing my cable designs for my company Nagys Audio. And surprisingly, Goldmund uses very similar caps in their electronics!

[Daryl]

Every film capacitor I have measured or seen measured by others shows a straight transfer function, negligable noise and distortion.

Between the three parameters there is mathematicaly no way possible to get a signifigant signal error that a person might hear.

So how would you know one from another?

In DBT tests participants couldn't even discern NPE's from poly's in speaker crossovers and NPE's characteristics are orders of magnitude worse than film caps.

These caps do sound nice and like something I would want to use but I see no reason to differetiate their sound from any other.

Obviously expensive types would be a waste of money.

[gooberdude]

Have you compared the Vishays against the real expensive caps, like Mundorfs or V-caps??     I have seen used amps on A'gon that list them but haven't heard or seen any.

also, do you have a shop?  i'm a local, right by Wrigley Field.

[Kenobi]

Hello,

Where's a good place to get these Vishay caps?  Please advise and thanks.

Kenobi

[NagysAudio]

I agree with the theory that everything can be measured. But, capacitors have dozens and dozens of measurable parameters. I could make a few educated guesses as to why some capacitors sound differently than others (and they do!!!!!), but I just simply don't feel like doing so and don't care to open endless arguments. Bottom line is this, different caps CAN have a different sound, the human ear is more sensitive to these changes than you think and this can be explained with measurements. To do all this would require pretty expensive equipment, time and a controlled environment. It's hard for normal people to do this. The real engineers who have access to equipment have better things to do. So a real test might never be made.

[NagysAudio]

You can order them from www.mouser.com

[art]

Every film capacitor I have measured or seen measured by others shows a straight transfer function, negligable noise and distortion.

Between the three parameters there is mathematicaly no way possible to get a signifigant signal error that a person might hear.

So how would you know one from another?

Give me a friggin' break......

Where are John Curl and Walt Jung when you really need them. Caps do have measurable distortion, and yes, you can hear it.

You, of course, are free to believe otherwise.

BTW.....the only thing I use those caps for are bypass in some digital circuits. No way I would use them in a critical analogue application.

But.....you are also free to believe what you please.

Over and out, before I make more enemies.

Pat

[TONEPUB]

Nagys:

I would be really intrigued with reviewing some of your cables at some point.
If you are ever interested, just let me know!

Goldmund makes great stuff, so Im intrigued...

I too, do NOT want to get into an argument about cables and capacitors!
(It's been too good of a day today!)

[Audiovista]

Here is a brief comment from Bob Pease of National Semiconductor. I was very surprised to read it as Bob is straight shooter who relies on measurements and blind tests and is known to go to battle proving that all cables that measure the same also sound the same.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/15653/15653.html

[Occam]

Norbert,

Have you noted a difference between different voltage ratings within the 1822 series? Assuming a minimal appropriate voltage rating, have you found subjective differences, fro example, between a 63v and a 250v rated 1822? Obviously, voltage ratings will change objective characteristics like film thickness, size, measurable parmeters........

TIA,
Paul

[aerius]

Every film capacitor I have measured or seen measured by others shows a straight transfer function, negligable noise and distortion.

http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html

There are differences, though slight, among various types of film capacitors.


As for the ERO polyester caps, there's a ton of them lying around in the local surplus store, I didn't bother trying them since they also had a bunch of Wima film & foil caps going for the same price in the values I needed.  I might play around with them some day when I prototype my next amp design.

[Daryl]

Every film capacitor I have measured or seen measured by others shows a straight transfer function, negligable noise and distortion.

http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html

There are differences, though slight, among various types of film capacitors.


As for the ERO polyester caps, there's a ton of them lying around in the local surplus store, I didn't bother trying them since they also had a bunch of Wima film & foil caps going for the same price in the values I needed.  I might play around with them some day when I prototype my next amp design.

Film capacitors are nearly perfect componets (especially polypropylene and teflon, polyester is much less perfect but still impressive).

There are differences but too small to hear since the componets are so nearly perfect.

Also the influence of a capacitor is strongest at the corner frequency of the circuit (declining above and below) so in most applications (coupling, bypass) you can eliminate the capacitors influence by locating the corner frequency well below the audio band (use a large value) making even poorly performing capacitors have no signifigant effect upon the circuit.

The article you linked as well as the articles from Jung/Marsh and Jung/Curl are utterly foolish.

They spend most of their time showing you the operation of capacitors you would never use for audio.

Then they waste more time operating polarized capacitors reverse-biased/unbiased which even a novice knows not to do (but apparently not them).

Finally they draw conclusions which their own measurements don't support.

[Imperial]

I gather the thousands of people then Daryl, that use different types of capacitors, we won't mention names
but it would be say, all the constructors of audio gear that in some way or another "voice" their equipment..

Measurements, how they strengthen the tongue, but a measure of truth they don't strengthen?
Maybe a measure of Marsh/Jung/Curls ears would be prudent..
But them gits cant even place a capacitor the right way, can they now... It's a crying shame!
Go tell 'em how to do it Daryl! 

And I'm of course not being ironic here, at least not measurably...
I'm just being an ass... You may kick it, if you like...  I'd like to measure the pain! Uhm, err, I mean the transfer function..  

A link to a similar talk some 7 years ago... http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tweaks&n=16478&highlight=&r=&session=

Imperial

[NagysAudio]

Hi Occam, I tend to like the lower voltage capacitors for speaker crossovers, 63vdc or 100vdc. I cannot hear a difference between different voltages. But it makes sense to use lower voltage because it is less expensive and the part is smaller. Smaller parts are easier to solder and one can make a very neat circuit board for the crossover.

I have compared these to Wima capacitors and I like them much better, even though the Wimas are of superior construction of metal foil and film!

[john curl]

Daryl, what gives you the right to form an opinon about capacitor problems?   This better be good!

[TONEPUB]

John:

Good to see you out here!!

Give us a little bit of reality, please!

[TomS]

Daryl, what gives you the right to form an opinon about capacitor problems?   This better be good!

Welcome John.  I worked with Walt J long ago myself back in the POOGE (TAA) days and have been working very hard to hold my tongue in this one.  Unfortunately, there isn't really much constructive to add that hasn't already been said many times before on many forums.

I certainly know Walt didn't suddenly wake up one day and imagine there were differences in caps (and resistors, solder, leads, wire, pcb substrates,...), rather it came from many, many hours of testing, trials, careful and controlled listening on his heavily modded Maggies, and collaborating with others such as yourself, Dick Marsh, David White, Gary Galo, et al using a variety of interesting topologies (both op amp and discrete).

Fascinating and fun stuff to be sure.

Tom

[TheChairGuy]

Okay guys - right now this topic is in Audio Central.  It'll get dumped in The Lab if it gets too technical soon (and then you'll feel the Wrath of Occam ).

Further, Art and Daryl, there will be no name-calling....foolish, ignorant, stupid are all very demeaning terms.  You all are gifted in some way - appreciate what each offers and have a nice time with this. I am purging Art's last post as it's too demeaning.

Daryl, I'll leave yours as it'll unduly swiss-cheese this topic, but please strike a more conciliatory tone in further posts on this subject (and others)

John Curl - it's a pleasure (perhaps even an honor) to have you here at AudioCircle.  Our humble website is monitored and moderated...so the gunslinging you both endure and dish out at AudioAsylum will be minimized.  Please play nice  - we'll do what we are (not) paid for here as volunteer Moderators.

Thanks all,

John / TheChairGuy / Global Moderator