[TheChairGuy]

The heavy base stops it from underneath. I have not thought of a way to stop it on the plinth, and I'm not going to put 10 pounds of plasticaly on my Empire, John

Don't mess with the looks of that Empire, Wayner - it's too gorgeous to mess up that way 

Put the Plast-i-Clay inside...not out, for some good effect.  Tho, putting the clay on the outside is superbly effective (as I can attest with a previous JVC belt and Direct Driver).


ugg - it looked like a friggin' mess, but it played quite well massed out like that.

[Psychicanimal]

You need to sell a few cartridges and get a KAB modded 1200.

I suggest power supply, fluid damper & Cardas tonearm rewire to start. aa

[TheChairGuy]

Maybe some day - not now - I like what I have.  It's automatic - nice thing to have - and it's internally (adjustable) oil-damped in vertical and horizontal plane.  Cartridge matching is near assured that way....which is probably every bit, if not more, beneficial than the somewhat dubious effect of Cardas or OFC re-wire for 5 feet. The JVC QL-F6 specs out the same or better in important regards of S/N, W & F, and speed deviation.  This was a $300.00 table 27 years ago...a fair equivalent of the SL-1200 of today in price; if not pricier in today's dollars.

Your typical HO MM (most MC's, too) cartridges have over 100' feet of plain old copper wire (some exceptions like Grado, of course) ...changing out the last 2" of tonearm leads and 5' of arm and tonearm cable (with lots of solder joints) won't/can't achieve all that much sonically.

The outboard power supply with better regulation...that's sensible and likely quite beneficial (just moving the transformer outboard is plain old smart for any turntable).  Oh well, can't have it all in audio   

[Psychicanimal]

Maybe some day - not now - I like what I have.  It's automatic - nice thing to have - and it's internally (adjustable) oil-damped in vertical and horizontal plane.  Cartridge matching is near assured that way....which is probably every bit, if not more, beneficial than the somewhat dubious effect of Cardas or OFC re-wire for 5 feet. The JVC QL-F6 specs out the same or better in important regards of S/N, W & F, and speed deviation.  This was a $300.00 table 27 years ago...a fair equivalent of the SL-1200 of today in price; if not pricier in today's dollars.

Don't forget the 1200's isolation sandwich system and the fact that you don't have on-the-fly VTA.  You're not getting the most of any cartridge as of now.  Jose's automatic JVC is higher up the food chain, QLY-66F, having a servo arm that can be damped in both planes and electric controls, not mechanical.

Your typical HO MM (most MC's, too) cartridges have over 100' feet of plain old copper wire (some exceptions like Grado, of course) ...changing out the last 2" of tonearm leads and 5' of arm and tonearm cable (with lots of solder joints) won't/can't achieve all that much sonically.

Your argument is similar to people who say power cords don't matter because there're miles and miles of power lines behind a component's outlet. I'll let you know...but them Rhodium clips on my new IKEDA copper headshell leads look very promising.  I haven't installed them cause my new KAB Stanton Trackmaster I is still breaking in and it souds just wonderfully alive.

The outboard power supply with better regulation...that's sensible and likely quite beneficial (just moving the transformer outboard is plain old smart for any turntable).  Oh well, can't have it all in audio   

You can buy a surplus DC power supply in Flea Bay.  Doug S. has a lab grade Hewlett Packard DC power supply for his Oracle.  I've heard it and it's definitely not a sluggish belt drive.  I can only imagine you starting a new thread when you do that.

***

[TheChairGuy]

Jose shopped well....his model is the one model that I know of in JVC's line better than my QL-F6.  It came out 6 years later (in 1985) and had the Servo arm.  Other than the nicer Rosewood finish on it....some of the other significant differences are the unusually longer 254mm arm and 13.5" (oversized) platter weighing over 2 lbs more (over 6.5 lbs total) than mine.  Likely, by 1985 (tho not certain), the internal cabling was possibly OFC rather than ordinary copper.

It was higher up the food chain in JVC's line and priced like it at over 2x more when new. The other models in JVC's line that came after mine looked nicer (JVC was trying to match Denon's rosewood looks in that era), but didn't have the performance parameters at it's level.  The QL-Y66 did - and then some.

OFC or higher purity wire likely does matter......but it matters less in context if you have hundreds of feet of plain wire curled up inside your cartridge....with several solder and odd metal - odd metal contacts from headshell to your preamp. In audio-phooldom, you improve what you can and that is available to improve....but 5' 'improved' with OFC copper will be a dubious improvement when there is another 100' of plain wire before it. 

Not saying it won't improve matters - it's just that there s so much to reach for in improvement by improving other transmission line avenues in the chain.  There are scads of other things to improve in my playback system, for sure 

One day some errant capacitor or relay will break in my beloved JVC....that'll be the day I go shopping for another.  I have so little invested in it and it sounds so good - I'm in no rush. I try never to allow my putty-headed, audio nervosa overcome the need for financial security later in life (ie., I like to save money when I can)

Happy to hear you are enjoying your NOS Trackmaster  I think the internals are probably rather similar to the Stanton CS-100 I have (270mh inductance / 500 ohms resistance) with the Stereohedron...so, I think I have an idea how much you are enjoying it   

You should hear the XLZ stuff from Stanton and Pickering (but needed are 60db of gain)....there is so much more signal passing thru them that it's nearly indecipherable from CD now in several ways that I had found vinyl playback thin previously. I think it's much of the effect that moving coils guys enjoy (with lower levels of DC resistance in that type of cartridge design allowing greater levels of signal to pass thru.  If it has low moving mass/light tracking as well, you get explosiveness dynamics in the bargain, too)

But anyhow, as I often do, I have digressed to another topic now....

[TheChairGuy]

Blow-by-blow(hard, maybe ) account of things...

I swapped out the LAT squishy puds for 4 adjustable brass footers from Parts Express today (they are very nice looking for under $20 - such value).  So, the toes/footers sit facing down from my TT....into the little brass protective cups they come with.....on top of the shot-filled, veggie cans.  The difference is slight, with perhaps a small nod to the footers, over the squishy toes, in this set-up.

From what I've read, optimal are the toes pointing downward from the TT right into the board underneath (no protective cups). I'll try that soon.

I've been toying with isolation for a lot of years....I'm still so surprised that maple works as well as it does.  This is really my first stab at using wood as isolation aid...and it's really quite effective 

[WEEZ]

Yup. Direct to the wood platform.

WEEZ

[Psychicanimal]

Yup. Direct to the wood platform.

WEEZ

With Goldmund cones piercing Moca wood it's simply stunning in terms of clarity and openess.

[Psychicanimal]

OFC or higher purity wire likely does matter......but it matters less in context if you have hundreds of feet of plain wire curled up inside your cartridge....with several solder and odd metal - odd metal contacts from headshell to your preamp. In audio-phooldom, you improve what you can and that is available to improve....but 5' 'improved' with OFC copper will be a dubious improvement when there is another 100' of plain wire before it. 

Not saying it won't improve matters - it's just that there s so much to reach for in improvement by improving other transmission line avenues in the chain.  There are scads of other things to improve in my playback system, for sure 

Happy to hear you are enjoying your NOS Trackmaster  I think the internals are probably rather similar to the Stanton CS-100 I have (270mh inductance / 500 ohms resistance) with the Stereohedron...so, I think I have an idea how much you are enjoying it   

John,

You need to try Rhodium plated connectors.  Dan Wright installed a Furutech Rhodium plated IEC on my belt drive transport.  Rhodium is a very clean sounding conductor.  Them clips on the headshell wires will make a difference versus 'gold plated' ones.

The Trackmaster I specs @ 400 Ohms, 400 mH inductance.  Mine was measured w/ a Fluke and one channel reads 375 & the other 380 Ohms and Kevin measured the output at 3 mV.  Perhaps the inductance measures lower than 400 also.  The KAB Trackmaster I provides an audiovisual experience.  I'm amazed!

***

[gooberdude]

TCG, you might try rigid paper as a layer in between the platform and the shelf.   Since it looks like you have amps on the same rack there might be great benefit in isolating the platform.  You are, errrr, hmmm, you are at the top of an iceburg.       

its nice that now i can quickly find a pic of an even stranger looking tt mount than my own, it helps during parties   



the height of the soup can devices would make 2" tall Isoblocks a bit awkward, 'specially if you are in a quake region...   but, taking the idea of using the maple as a vibration sink it does need to be isolated from the rack.    Just a single layer of Isoblocks would be better than nothing, 2 of 'em split apart. - 1" thick.   These can be bought generically, but match the exact same design.   there's half a dozen difft variations.  don't get the waffle pattern..

the full monty is a 3 layer sandwich, and you have 2 layers done real nice.   

that $100 board needs to be set free to vibrate sympathetically with the TT though...lots more bass to come.  And with that, reduced noise floor, more 3-D, blacker, wider, deeper, taller, etc, etc.     

Keep in mind that variations of this same mounting scheme can/will improve nearly any other component to a system:  the power strip, amplifiers, preamps, sources, power supplies & speakers.    its a $lippery $lope though!!!       The components that vibrate the most benefit the most.

Just gaining an appreciation for how draining vibes into a suspended tonewood plinth performs is the crucial first step.   grain orientation, wood types, drying techniques & construction become important after the training wheels come off.   

For these boards, thicker is better and try for horizontal grain.  its not as hard and won't reflect energy back into the rigidly coupled tt like end grain.   somehow the horiz grain orientation allows the footers to drain the chassis vibes more efficiently.

[TheChairGuy]

Sacre bleu! 

I took my JVC off the stilts (the shot filled veggie cans) just now and laid it right on the maple cutting board...with toes pointing down right into the board.  It didn't take but 3 second for me to notice the difference.

It's more dynamic now and the sense of stereo imaging is heightened - I'm stunned (again). Eugene Ormandy's Tchaikovsky Suite from Swam Lake never sounded so good.  All the instruments are cleaner and have greater power behind them.  I can't say it's any quieter...just more dynamic, mostly. Tympani's sound like thunderbolts now.

Frankly, I hadn't done it before as I was skeptical I'd hear a difference.  I do indeed.  Wood....is good 

Very cool - thanks for all your help.  GooberMatt - I'm gonna' try isolating the cutting board from the rack soon...just as soon as I retrieve my jaw from the floor     

[TheChairGuy]

Okay, I just put the only thing under the board that i know can support about 68 lbs of TT and board....three (#5) Vibrapods.  Now, I have never had any luck getting those Vibrapods to work before...they are too bouncy and I never hard beneficial isolation from them.

Same thing under the board.  It's a bit quieter...but music lost all of the power and punch it had previously.  Plus, my 3 y.o. daughter was dancing around in here (she does that a lot) and the needle skipped.  Never done that before.

Has anyone out there ever had luck with these daggon' Vibrapods?  Waste of time they've been for me.

I'll try rollers or more cones when I obtain them somewhere.  Or the Isoblock type stuff mentioned by a couple of you already.

This is all just amazing it matters at all.  I thought a few of you were fruit-loops when debating the virtues of various woods, cone types, etc.  I figured de-coupled and isolated was good enough...if the needle didn't skip and you rapped the top of the table during playback and very little eeeked out to your speakers - that meant you done did good.  How wrong I was 

Thanks all 

EDIT: interesting stuff found on TNT http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt2_e.html

[Jim N.]

There is a batch of the neoprene/cork/neoprene pads on Ebay. 24 4x4x1 pads for 57 bucks shipped. That should make about 48 of the Isolpads. One Agon vendor wants 25 bucks for 4 2x2x7/8 pads. Can't say for sure that they identical but that is one heck of a price difference.

[Jampot]

TCG (and all)

I don't doubt the benefit of isolation, but I have opened up the bottom tray (plastic) of a Technics I have here and find that although the diecast alloy has substantial bosses for the fixing screws these are only tiny self tappers through the plastic of the lower tray which then has the feet fixed to it.

So, even if I line the inside with plasticlay (like the photos in TCG's $400 dollar thread) there still isn't very much to couple the motor and arm to anything put below.

Am I missing something?

Or

Is it de-coupling we are looking for - in which case could some means of damping be introduced between the main chassis and the plastic tray?

The original feet seem to be a kind of conical rubber construction with felt pads below. As these are nearly 30 years old is there something specific with which to replace them?

Jim

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Jampot,

Work the Plast-i-Clay in where you can ..and or where you can bear it.  It is effective everywhere (don't clog any moving parts under your TT) In your Technics table.  Not just the bottom tray, but the corners and as much of the underside of the plinth that you can without interfering with the moving parts.  It's hideous looking when you start putting it on top of your deck...but very, very effective.

The picture you are referring to was a deck I bought for $50 after deciding to get back into vinyl after a half-decade absence.  So I basically screwed with it to see how far this medium could go.  Turns out, it's a pretty fantastic music format - significant warts and all.

There is a footer made for most of the Japanese decks called Isonoe (from the UK).  Quite pricey at $200.00/4, but likely effective.  But, so is the $100.00 maple cutting block and $20/4 toes from Parts Express.

[TheChairGuy]

Late last night I was scratching my head over everything (with pleasure this time over recent isolation finds and events).

The Vibrapods really were crappy....so I went back to the board lying right on the rack.  Seemed a bit inelegant, but sounded good.

Psychicanimal/Francisco had sent a chunk of moca wood months ago to me.  I shaved off 4 neat little blocks sized for my cartridge headshell.  I never used them as I don't have VTA adjustment on my deck...so they sat all lonely to the side for months.

I took three, placed them carefully under the wood block...with my deck on top with the 4 pointy toes rammed into the block.  Viola - perfection.  I'm banging on that table pretty hard and nothing notable was being fed back into the sonic chain.  I mean, I was tapping it dang hard to get anything out of it....right by the tonearm, too.  This is absolutely the best isolation yet...those teeny-tiny moca blocks are fantastic. 

I don't hear warm, analytical or anything....I just hear clarity and rightness now.  Less room-induced vibrations are traveling up to the TT now...and somehow vibrations from the deck are being smothered, too.

This is just wild stuff to learn at my advanced age 

PA, you're right (again), moca wood is da' bomb. Thanks.   

[gooberdude]

Ahhhh, young Skywalker is advancing fast for the amount of training he's received!!!!!!

you are gettin' it for sure John.    i didn't want to blast your soupcans, but figured those would be an achillies heel.        From what i recall, the cans both isolate and couple.  In that position you want true couplers, and wood blocks do the trick.     the real stuff works 1000% better too   

Stick with the set-up as is for a while, then try & isolate.      If it ends up that you can't do any better, would you care??!!!    Also, do the generic Isoblocks have a 30 day return policy?       Isoblocks won't/can't work unless everything above them is working to the design.

Just wait until you get the nerve to try this mount on an amp, preamp or a power conditioner.    If done properly the cumulative effects are undeniable.

Have you tried a single layer of cardboard or other rigid paper under the platform?   Also, are there stock feet on your TT, and have you bypassed them??  Ie, have you unscrewed them?    Once my tt was draining properly, removing all the unnecesary crap from the deck made the bass come forth more.  hinges, screws...etc.

i don't know where i stand on this aspect, but the placement of the wood blocks can change sound.   I think mapleshade wants them as close to the edges as possible...where the TT chassis is the strongest.  Don't put these in the middle where the base is weakest, supposedly the vibe transmission is lessened. 

On my TT, the Ultimate Triplepoints make a right triangle around the spinning deck, not under the entire platter.     No clue if its optimal, but sounds the best to me...


matt

[TheChairGuy]

Bless you for even mentioning 'young' in connection with me in any way, Matt 

I forgot to mention, I remembered your experiment with old album covers, et al (paper, in general)...so, under the wee mighty moca blocks are several sheets of old business cards - 3 cards were cut in half, so 6 total 'sheets' are under each mighty moca block. That may or may not be helping matters...but like you say, I'll stick with the set-up a while.

The three blocks are on the outside perimeter of the cutting board - 2 at front corners and one in back (middle, of course)

Keith Jarrett, on his Solo Concerts /Bremen, Lausanne, is jamming today!! Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake (which includes Darth Vader's theme song if anyone is interested) and Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 are glorious,  - no smearing, gangantuan soundstage north/south/east/west and 'settled' placement of all sounds and instruments.

Very CD-like in all the good ways it offers...but attention-grabbing as only vinyl can offer in a format today.

This may be my best month (June 2007) as an audiophile - ever. Low impedance/inductance cartridges and jigunda maple blocks under my turntable are musts from hereon out 

[gooberdude]

Do you have bitness cards inbetween the moca and the maple??   

i was just recomending rigid paper as a possibility/experimentation for an isolation layer under the slab...don't put anything between the moca and the maple for now if possible.    let it couple.

you may experience this later, but its something i've come to understand as quite normal - these mounts (or whatever you want to call them) take about a full day to settle.  Sure, you can hear changes right away but the real thing happens in a few hours, to overnight.

My set-up is:   2 empty LP covers side-by-side (not touching) laying on the MDF shelf.  The 4 isoblocks go on top of the covers, 2 to a side & angled according to the mfgr directions.  Then comes the big daddy 4" maple plat, then the Ultimate Triplepoints, then the TT.     Any variation of this, including swapping out difft footers or even removing the album covers kinda ruins the magic.     The LP covers are just to mitigate the toxic effects of MDF though.    ymmv with them...


You're 44 right?   Technically, you won't be old for another 6 years        

[TheChairGuy]

Matt - the biz cards are only under the wee mighty moca blocks...the moca is coupled 'direct' to the maple cutting board above.  It would be too hard to get biz cards between moca and maple...the board weighs 26 lbs or so.  With my deck on top, it's about 60 lbs. Well, it could be done of course...but if you're telling me I got it right (so far), I'm staying put.