[andyr]

I also have an idea of trying the DIY recipe of VHAudio (double helix on teflon tube) not using 28 AWG silver but magnet wire.

Johan

Hi Johan,

What do you mean by the "double helix"?  If you mean the signal and earth wires spiraling in parallel around a teflon tube like the old-fashioned barber's pole then, yes, that might well be Chris Ven Haus's invention.  If you mean the signal and earth wires criss-cross around the teflon tube (being wrapped alternatively from each side) then Allen Wright of Vacuum State Electronics came out with that design for an IC well before CVH got into business.  Although in fact, XLO actually might've come out with a retail product before Allen wrote his "Super Cable Cook Book" ... I don't know. 

I make all my ICs using Allen Wright's "criss-cross" method ... I've used mag-wire as well as teflon-coated wire and they both sound good.

Regards,

Andy

[guest1632]

Hi Johan,

What do you mean by the "double helix"?  If you mean the signal and earth wires spiraling in parallel around a teflon tube like the old-fashioned barber's pole then, yes, that might well be Chris Ven Haus's invention.  If you mean the signal and earth wires criss-cross around the teflon tube (being wrapped alternatively from each side) then Allen Wright of Vacuum State Electronics came out with that design for an IC well before CVH got into business.  Although in fact, XLO actually might've come out with a retail product before Allen wrote his "Super Cable Cook Book" ... I don't know. 

I make all my ICs using Allen Wright's "criss-cross" method ... I've used mag-wire as well as teflon-coated wire and they both sound good.

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

Ok, nitpicking here, do you notice any difference between the mag wire versus the coated Teflon wire?

What RCA's have you used. What gauges seem to be optimal?

Ray Bronk

[andyr]

Hi Andy,

Ok, nitpicking here, do you notice any difference between the mag wire versus the coated Teflon wire?

What RCA's have you used. What gauges seem to be optimal?

Ray Bronk

Hi nitpicker!   

No I haven't directly compared one with the other.  I used 21g Vampire cast-copper magwire in my main ICs between preamp and active XOs because these are very long (35') and I couldn't find a thinner equally-high-quality solid-core copper wire (XLO used to make a 24g wire, which would've been perfect but this seems to be no longer available).

But, as I've said, I use XLO 24g earth and 3x30g solid-core copper wire in my "normal" ICs.

RCAs ... I use Eichmann Bullet Plugs.

Regards,

Andy

[Jolojl]

Hi all!

andyr
I meant the double helix like "the signal and earth wires spiraling in parallel around a teflon tube". If ever you try it (or have tried it) I'm curious to know how it compares to the "criss-cross" cables.

Johan

[andyr]

Hi all!

andyr
I meant the double helix like "the signal and earth wires spiraling in parallel around a teflon tube". If ever you try it (or have tried it) I'm curious to know how it compares to the "criss-cross" cables.

Johan

Hi Johnan,

No, I haven't tried it asIMO it is very difficult to get the wires spaced exactly parallel (and spiralling) around the tube.  I think you need a machine to do this well whereas criss-cross around the tubing is not particularly hard.

Regards,

Andy

[1000a]

Andy

thanks for giving me feed back the other day I think I will try the 3 30 ga. mag instead of a single signal wire and use the 24ga. for the return.

I am thrilled everyone is getting excited and off to the races on their ICs, that way we can all get feed back to each other very cool.  I do like the CHV crissX on the tef tube its also nice to know Andy really has serious knowledge in these departments.  Thanks for helping us out.

Andy is there a specific reason or sonic attribute you like about 3 singles wires instead of 1??

1000a

[andyr]

Andy

thanks for giving me feed back the other day I think I will try the 3 30 ga. mag instead of a single signal wire and use the 24ga. for the return.

Andy is there a specific reason or sonic attribute you like about 3 singles wires instead of 1??

1000a

Hi 1000a,

OK, my reason for thinking the best option is 24g 'return' and 3x30g 'signal' is gut-feel based on the following assumptions (made after the last 15 years amateur "research"):
* solid-core wire is better, sonically, than stranded.
* sonics suffer if you use too-thick, solid-core wire wire.
* the 'return' wire should be thicker than the 'signal' wire.
* 24g wire is the thickest to use for the 'return' wire.
* 1x30g for 'signal' is too much less overall wire diameter than 1x24g ... 3x30g is nearer.  2x30g might be just as good - I haven't bothered to experiement.
* really thin wire (like 30g) will lose you bass due to its lack of mass (this was an experiment I actually did!  ).  So you need to wrap the 30g wires around a tube or around each other to anchor it (and the 24g 'return' wire is an acceptable basis for this wrap).

It's highly possible the sonic difference between using, for the same wire, 3x30g or 1x26g for 'signal' is neglegible.  My belief is that it wouldn't be better, though! 

Regards,

Andy

[DaveC113]

Any updates on how any of your experiments turned out?

I am making some ICs for a new system, they will use Jupiter 28 ga Silver Wire for the signal:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/wire.html   (about 2/3 way to the bottom)

I will also likely wax the cotton so it doesn't absorb moisture and it should help to damp mechanical vibration as well. Depending on how fragile the wire is I might enclose it in some oversize (16ga) Teflon tubing. I will try to avoid doing this, but it might be a necessary evil.


20 ga high purity enameled copper magnet wire in the anti-cables configuration for ground. I think the coil is to keep the ground wire at close to a right angle to the signal wire. Interesting design...


...and these super cheap switchcraft RCAs. They are almost all plastic, and have a hollow copper (not brass!) tube for the signal. This means the signal wire can be soldered to the tip of the rca plug ala Eichmanns. These are my "Little Eichmanns"    

Here's a photo: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=932-1099&R=932%2D1099&sid=46B90780387EE17F

And where I ordered from: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=39F2161&CMP=AFC-GB100000001

[guest1632]

Any updates on how any of your experiments turned out?

I am making some ICs for a new system, they will use Jupiter 28 ga Silver Wire for the signal:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/wire.html   (about 2/3 way to the bottom)

I will also likely wax the cotton so it doesn't absorb moisture and it should help to damp mechanical vibration as well. Depending on how fragile the wire is I might enclose it in some oversize (16ga) Teflon tubing. I will try to avoid doing this, but it might be a necessary evil.


20 ga high purity enameled copper magnet wire in the anti-cables configuration for ground. I think the coil is to keep the ground wire at close to a right angle to the signal wire. Interesting design...


...and these super cheap switchcraft RCAs. They are almost all plastic, and have a hollow copper (not brass!) tube for the signal. This means the signal wire can be soldered to the tip of the rca plug ala Eichmanns. These are my "Little Eichmanns"    

Here's a photo: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=932-1099&R=932%2D1099&sid=46B90780387EE17F

And where I ordered from: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=39F2161&CMP=AFC-GB100000001

Hi DaveC113,

Now the little tiny question.: What solder are you gonna use? It would seem from the research I've done, that silver has to be one of the components in that solder. Keep it as close to lead free as possible, like wonder solder, or Vampire solder, or something like that.

Ray

[DaveC113]

Hi DaveC113,

Now the little tiny question.: What solder are you gonna use? It would seem from the research I've done, that silver has to be one of the components in that solder. Keep it as close to lead free as possible, like wonder solder, or Vampire solder, or something like that.

Ray

I usually crimp first (if the connection allows it) followed by some silver solder. I haven't tried anything fancy, just the lead-free silver bearing (%4 if I remember right) flux-core solder.

I'll try a few geometries and wires and see what works best for me.

   

[guest1632]

Hi DaveC113,

Now the little tiny question.: What solder are you gonna use? It would seem from the research I've done, that silver has to be one of the components in that solder. Keep it as close to lead free as possible, like wonder solder, or Vampire solder, or something like that.

Ray

I usually crimp first (if the connection allows it) followed by some silver solder. I haven't tried anything fancy, just the lead-free silver bearing (%4 if I remember right) flux-core solder.

I'll try a few geometries and wires and see what works best for me.

   

Hi again,

So who's solder ar you using?

Ray

[DaveC113]

Hi again,

So who's solder ar you using?

Ray

I have some Radio Shack (thick) and some thinner stuff that I'm not sure of. Do you think its worth getting a certain brand? 

[Occam]

Dave - IMO, ditch the RatShaque solder, its not a eutectic mixture, and more importantly, you've no idea as to how old the internal flux is. Flux decomposes.
Unless you're a pro, use a eutectic mixture -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=23863.msg211507#msg211507

I think we're really dealing with 2 separate issues here.

1. Given the if infirmities of many of us and infrequency of soldering practice, the ease of soldering and ability to produce a clean joint is of prime importance. Regarless of chemical, metalurgical issues, a cold joint will not sound as good as a good one. That means for me, a eutectic composition (where the melting point is below that of the individual components and the liquid state goes directly to solid). This leads me to solders, Multicore, Kester 44, Cardas, and various other eutectic mixtures, primarily composed of lead/tin, often with additions of copper, silver..... And the type of internal flux can have a major effect on flow and wicking which can make or break your efforts. And if you can source it, there is the ternary tin-copper-silver eutectic from Johnson Manufacturing IA-423 (with organic flux), mp 423 F degrees.

2. For those who can compentenly weild a higher thermal mass iron, non eutectic and non lead bearing solders are feasable. Many prefer an 4-8% silver - tin composition, Kester Sn95 Ag5. But frankly, I lack the dexterity/competence to deal with such solders.

So how would we go about judging the merits of differing solder/flux compositions? If we assume the benefits/negatives of a given composition is cummulative, I guess we could assemble 2 of the same component, and listen for a difference between them with 50+ solder joints of the same solder on each hopefully yeilding a discernable difference.

Go with Kester 62/36/2 '44' (I've used this for years), Cardas Quad Eutectic, or whatever bespoke solder tickles your fancy.

FWIW

[DaveC113]

Dave - IMO, ditch the RatShaque solder, its not a eutectic mixture, and more importantly, you've no idea as to how old the internal flux is. Flux decomposes.
Unless you're a pro, use a eutectic mixture -

Go with Kester 62/36/2 '44' (I've used this for years), Cardas Quad Eutectic, or whatever bespoke solder tickles your fancy.

FWIW

Thanks, I added some Johnson IA-423 to my order. It can't hurt...

Dave

[guest1632]

Hi again,

So who's solder ar you using?

Ray

I have some Radio Shack (thick) and some thinner stuff that I'm not sure of. Do you think its worth getting a certain brand? 

Hi DaveC113,

I'd probably look at the stuff from parts Express, Dayton silver solder, or maybe the Wonder leadfree solder. Both are supposed to be relatively easy to work with. You can get the wonder solder, with very little lead in it. That's the standard stuff from Sonic Craff, or trt-wonder. Thgat's supposed to work real easy.

Ray

[guest1632]

Dave - IMO, ditch the RatShaque solder, its not a eutectic mixture, and more importantly, you've no idea as to how old the internal flux is. Flux decomposes.
Unless you're a pro, use a eutectic mixture -

Go with Kester 62/36/2 '44' (I've used this for years), Cardas Quad Eutectic, or whatever bespoke solder tickles your fancy.

FWIW

Thanks, I added some Johnson IA-423 to my order. It can't hurt...

Dave

Hi Dave,

What's this Johnson stuff?

Ray

[DaveC113]

Thanks, I added some Johnson IA-423 to my order. It can't hurt...

Dave

Hi Dave,

What's this Johnson stuff?

Ray

Ha, you got me 

I wasn't really paying attention to solder besides using a lead free silver bearing variety before you asked. I'm surprised some of the high end stuff still has lead in it though. It makes it easier to solder, but I have a high power 800 degree iron made for stained glass with a chisel tip, so the melting point of the solder doesn't matter too much. You just have to be really careful not to heat up stuff you don't want to.

The Johnson solder was recommended by Occam in his post. I googled it and it seems like a popular solder to use for audio, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I'm already paying $2.50/ft for 28 ga wire, so why not solder that costs $20 for 1/4 lb? Paying this much for "ordinary" items is a bit of a stretch for me, but I do acknowledge the cable makes a big difference. I still think the majority of expensive cable designs are of questionable value though.

I also payed $1.25/ft for some anti-cable 12 ga wire. It seems like its overkill for my little Trends T-amp, but I figure I can solder some spades on and make a profit on ebay if it doesn't work out.  I'm using 20 ga magnet wire right now thats dirt cheap, it will be interesting to compare. I'm sure Paul Speltz spent a long time figuring out the best wire and insulation combination to use so its probably going to be worth it.  

Dave

[guest1632]

Thanks, I added some Johnson IA-423 to my order. It can't hurt...

Dave

Hi Dave,

What's this Johnson stuff?

Ray

Ha, you got me 

I wasn't really paying attention to solder besides using a lead free silver bearing variety before you asked. I'm surprised some of the high end stuff still has lead in it though. It makes it easier to solder, but I have a high power 800 degree iron made for stained glass with a chisel tip, so the melting point of the solder doesn't matter too much. You just have to be really careful not to heat up stuff you don't want to.

The Johnson solder was recommended by Occam in his post. I googled it and it seems like a popular solder to use for audio, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I'm already paying $2.50/ft for 28 ga wire, so why not solder that costs $20 for 1/4 lb? Paying this much for "ordinary" items is a bit of a stretch for me, but I do acknowledge the cable makes a big difference. I still think the majority of expensive cable designs are of questionable value though.

I also payed $1.25/ft for some anti-cable 12 ga wire. It seems like its overkill for my little Trends T-amp, but I figure I can solder some spades on and make a profit on ebay if it doesn't work out.  I'm using 20 ga magnet wire right now thats dirt cheap, it will be interesting to compare. I'm sure Paul Speltz spent a long time figuring out the best wire and insulation combination to use so its probably going to be worth it.  

Dave

Hi Dave,

I suggest go to circuitspecialists.com and uder the lead free soldering get the soldering station that is 70 watts, and has a short barrel shorter than the typical soldering iron. It's $49, and well worth it.

Ray

[guest1632]

Thanks, I added some Johnson IA-423 to my order. It can't hurt...

Dave

Hi Dave,

What's this Johnson stuff?

Ray

Ha, you got me 

I wasn't really paying attention to solder besides using a lead free silver bearing variety before you asked. I'm surprised some of the high end stuff still has lead in it though. It makes it easier to solder, but I have a high power 800 degree iron made for stained glass with a chisel tip, so the melting point of the solder doesn't matter too much. You just have to be really careful not to heat up stuff you don't want to.

The Johnson solder was recommended by Occam in his post. I googled it and it seems like a popular solder to use for audio, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I'm already paying $2.50/ft for 28 ga wire, so why not solder that costs $20 for 1/4 lb? Paying this much for "ordinary" items is a bit of a stretch for me, but I do acknowledge the cable makes a big difference. I still think the majority of expensive cable designs are of questionable value though.

I also payed $1.25/ft for some anti-cable 12 ga wire. It seems like its overkill for my little Trends T-amp, but I figure I can solder some spades on and make a profit on ebay if it doesn't work out.  I'm using 20 ga magnet wire right now thats dirt cheap, it will be interesting to compare. I'm sure Paul Speltz spent a long time figuring out the best wire and insulation combination to use so its probably going to be worth it.  

Dave

Hi Dave,

I suggest go to circuitspecialists.com and uder the lead free soldering get the soldering station that is 70 watts, and has a short barrel shorter than the typical soldering iron. It's $49, and well worth it.

Ray

Hi again,

An 800 watt iron? wouldn't get that near any IC boy. Give some thought about the one I suggested. Just got mine. haven't used it yet, but will soon, as soon as I get some good solder.

Ray

[DaveC113]

Hi again,

An 800 watt iron? wouldn't get that near any IC boy. Give some thought about the one I suggested. Just got mine. haven't used it yet, but will soon, as soon as I get some good solder.

Ray

Yeah, I'd like to see the guy who can wield an 800 W iron... I wonder how many lbs of solder you could melt through per hour with a tool like that   

I bought my iron years ago for stained glass, it is high wattage but still less than 100 W. It was a very expensive iron that stays at a constant temperature (800 deg F I think?) and just plugs into the wall without needing any additional way to control the heat. You can solder stained glass very quickly with beautiful results, but I'm sure its not ideal for electronics. I will buy another iron if I attempt a bigger project... maybe a pre and an amp in the near future though.