[Jolojl]

Hi! 

Just a quick question: does anyone know the exact AWG of Anti-cables copper ICs (I have a pair and need to make 6 new pairs (magnet wire is ready available and I can't afford to buy new 6 Anti-Ics ...)).

Thanks!
Johan 

[andyr]

Hi! 

Just a quick question: does anyone know the exact AWG of Anti-cables copper ICs (I have a pair and need to make 6 new pairs (magnet wire is ready available and I can't afford to buy new 6 Anti-Ics ...)).

Thanks!
Johan 

Johan,

Why do you need to exactly match the AWG of the Anti-cables? 

IME, ICs should use anywhere between 24 & 26 awg.  Possibly, the 'return' leg should be thicker than the 'hot' leg.  Yes, each will sound different but the different physical constructions you can use will cause ICs to sound more different than just the difference in wire guage.   
Regards,

Andy

[Jolojl]

Hi Andy!

Actually, the reason(s) is quite simple I like the Anti-ICs and I wouldl like to "clone" them times six for my set-up. It would be my first DIY project, and I would like to keep it simple. If I started to look around on various ways of making ICs I would never stop and never get the ICs made... So it was just a reason of keeping with a (to my ears) proved formula when starting DIY.

Johan

[gooberdude]

I have 2 sets of anti-IC's...the newest pair's Hot run is a thicker gauge than the same leg on the older set.  If you take a look, the return side is ultra tiny.   like 30 gauge or smaller...

Do you think you can DIY the slinky effect of them?  according to paul speltz, that's the bread & butter of the design.   i haven't played with rat shack enameled wire but should, its so cheap.

[andyr]

I have 2 sets of anti-ICs...the newest pair's Hot run is a thicker gauge than the same leg on the older set.  If you take a look, the return side is ultra tiny.   like 30 gauge or smaller...

Interesting that Paul Speltz's design uses a thicker 'hot' wire than 'return' wire ... Keith Eichmann uses a thicker 'return' wire and claims he's patented the optimum ratio wrt the 'hot' wire vs 'return' wire for his ICs.

As I understand the theory, a thicker 'return' wire will have less resistance and so result in less ground-potential difference between the components at either end ... which makes sense to moi, anyway!    A difference in ground-potential can create noise.

Regards,

Andy

[1000a]

Gooberdude

is the tiniest wire attached to the larger wire on the anti-s?
if not then one wire is clearly longer than the other, correct?
there are places that sell 2 enameled wires already bonded together, is this what they are?
is the signal wire the slinky looking thing?
I did a slinky wire just to protect my 30ga signal wire but it was not hooked up?
it also seems the anti silver ICs are magwire also, are they silver platted copper?
I have looked high and low for silver mag wire and come up empty handed so far.

anyway I am down for making magwire ICs, my first pair done are 18ga. return and 30ga. signal and are strait using no particular geometry. sound very good beat the hell out of pricey PS Audios- down right embaressed em IMS. shockingly better

I can not back this up with science, not that type of guy- I can tell you my twist on it after spending contless hours studying up on types of mag wire and many DIY cables, and commerical ones even non mag.

It seems to me both Mapleshade and Anti-cable at different times discovered what some others at some point already knew - that magnet wire having a very thin coating vs. thicker rubber teflon whatever has some serious sound advantages probably just thru listening to them.  My conjecture is mag has ultra thin jacket all most all other wires  reqiure thicker jackets, possibly increasing the dielectric effect.  anyway mag sounds good Paul and Mapleshade are more than aware of it.

I my self had planned numerous variations on my DIY ICs but have found similar and even larger improvements treating my listening room, the desire to improve my cable is on the back burner.  Its just a guess but you may even create one more to your liking than the anti by accident, mine has a 18ga return cause I needed to support the 30ga signal wire evidently there are ones with larger singnal than return.

if you cann't dupe the antis and want a good cable, without getting all anal about trying 10 diff styles.  I would definitly use a small signal wire ( I have read far to many times its advantages and am convinced enough for me on this part) I have seen far to many of the top dog ICs do exactly this, some single some multiple a-la Audio Quest.  See the homebrew 20. killer IC article thats what tiped me off to these thoughts, I feel he mistakenly put his mag wire in packing tape therefore increasing its dielectric.

it seems to me based on research of others products a few general rules of thumb (not gosple but pretty reliable)

1- the dielectric used always degrades the sound, some more some less, nothing is best- but not possible

2-quality of the wire is important but not as much as the above (silver in crappy di is not goona beat copper in excent di- the dielectric is the main culprate of bad sound.  also for many standed wire is considered very poor.  this does not mean eqnore quality mag is excellent its usually soft annealed wire.

3- geometry affects the sound, have no clue whats better, I think I understand twisted wires do regect more emi-rfi noise. I know many who have anti SC think twisting the cable makes it smoother and a little more extended.

4- better RCAs improved the sound of mine but not nearly as much as i would have thought.  To maximise I am definitly gonna use copper bullets.

lastly to note Chris VH has a new silver IC that uses cotton sleeving as a dielectric cause its about the lowest number you can get.  Now magwire comes in about 10 different coatings, alittle confusing have no idea what people are using my first one uses gp200, but I have now found a source for teflon enameled wire so that is my next move.


mag w teflon:  http://www.weicowire.com/magnetwireproductlist.htm


if anyone is interested I bought 80. worth of magwire recently probably sell for 50. shipped

[guest1632]

I have 2 sets of anti-ICs...the newest pair's Hot run is a thicker gauge than the same leg on the older set.  If you take a look, the return side is ultra tiny.   like 30 gauge or smaller...

Interesting that Paul Speltz's design uses a thicker 'hot' wire than 'return' wire ... Keith Eichmann uses a thicker 'return' wire and claims he's patented the optimum ratio wrt the 'hot' wire vs 'return' wire for his ICs.

As I understand the theory, a thicker 'return' wire will have less resistance and so result in less ground-potential difference between the components at either end ... which makes sense to moi, anyway!    A difference in ground-potential can create noise.

 Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

In talking to Paul, he obviously wouldn't tell me the gauge of the wire used, but the spiral is the ground, and the obvious one running down the center is the hot one.

Jason from Guerrilla Audio uses about 23 gauge. A guy I knew a long time ago said his experimentation yielded that 22 to 24 gauge was about best.

Ray Bronk

[Jolojl]

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for your input! Conclusion so far would be: spiral is ground and much thicker than signal. 22-24 is recommended AWG for signal but the Anti-ICs have maybe even thinner (30 AWG ).

As to connectors I will get some Neutriks on eBay to begin with, OK price. Maybe I'll change them later.

There is company in Great Britain that sells all kind of wire, also enamelled silver wire. I think they might be to thick for ICs though (but OK for speaker cables). Here's a link:  http://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/si_enam.html . And here's a link to a AWG/mm conversion table: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/awg_e.html .

Johan

[ctviggen]

So, in an anti-cable, the inner conductor is larger gauge (smaller diameter) than the return/ground?  And the inner conductor is straight while the outer ground is wrapped around the inner conductor and is wrapped/designed to act like a spring? Well, if you wanted to get approximately the same resistance, by making the gauge smaller (larger diameter) for the outer conductor, you could probably achieve this as smaller gauge wire has less resistance per linear foot.  I would assume that wrapping the outer conductor around the inner conductor would have some benefit (it's a heck of a lot better than having  two parallel conductors, which creates a transmission line). 

[Speedskater]

So, in an anti-cable, the inner conductor is larger gauge (smaller diameter) than the return/ground?  And the inner conductor is straight while the outer ground is wrapped around the inner conductor and is wrapped/designed to act like a spring? Well, if you wanted to get approximately the same resistance, by making the gauge smaller (larger diameter) for the outer conductor, you could probably achieve this as smaller gauge wire has less resistance per linear foot.  I would assume that wrapping the outer conductor around the inner conductor would have some benefit (it's a heck of a lot better than having  two parallel conductors, which creates a transmission line). 

It's still a transmission line. (just not a good RF transmission line)
But, calculating it's RF characteristic impedance will be real tough.
Nothing you can do will make it not be a transmission line.
A Transmission Line is:
A material structure forming a continuous path from one place to another, and used for directing the transmission of electromagnetic energy along this path.

[jb]

Just a quick question: does anyone know the exact AWG of Anti-cables copper ICs.

Why don’t you just measure the diameter of the wire? The thickness of the enamel is only a few thousandths.

As I understand the theory, a thicker 'return' wire will have less resistance and so result in less ground-potential difference between the components at either end.

Why are you concerned about resistance? Interconnects are a high impedance interface with negligible current. As such, capacitance has a more profound effect on the signal than either resistance or inductance. The return leg of the IC should carry the return signal, nothing more. If the IC has to balance the ground potential between components, your system is not wired correctly.

[Jolojl]

Why don’t you just measure the diameter of the wire? The thickness of the enamel is only a few thousandths.

Hi jb! 

Well, because I don't have any adequate measurement tool, just a ruler and measuring tape. Minimum unit is 1 mm~18 AWG, and while the thick leg is about this size, the thinner is quite a bit thinner.

Johan 

[andyr]

Why are you concerned about resistance? Interconnects are a high impedance interface with negligible current. As such, capacitance has a more profound effect on the signal than either resistance or inductance. The return leg of the IC should carry the return signal, nothing more. If the IC has to balance the ground potential between components, your system is not wired correctly.

Hi jb,

I'm not "concerned about resistance" ... I agree with you that for an IC, capacitance is the most significant parameter.

"If the IC has to balance the ground potential between components, your system is not wired correctly".  But an IC (via the RCAs it's plugged into) connects the signal ground plane of the PCB in the pre (say) to the signal ground plane of the power amp. 

I wouldn't call this "balancing the ground" ... I'd simply say it's connecting the two grounds.  So if you used a 3m long, 30g wire for this connection, this wire would have greater resistance than a 24g wire.  This greater resistance could produce noise if the topology of either component made them susceptible to ground-plane noise.

Regards,

Andy

[1000a]

Hi guys!

There is company in Great Britain that sells all kind of wire, also enamelled silver wire. I think they might be to thick for ICs though (but OK for speaker cables). Here's a link:  http://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/si_enam.html . And here's a link to a AWG/mm conversion table: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/awg_e.html .
Johan

OK now this is getting really really interesting and fun, can't wait to try both enameled silver and the tefloned copper either should yeild some pretty incredible cables.  Thanks mucho for the silver link, have not done converstions yet.
1000a

[1000a]

Hi jb,

I wouldn't call this "balancing the ground" ... I'd simply say it's connecting the two grounds.  So if you used a 3m long, 30g wire for this connection, this wire would have greater resistance than a 24g wire.  This greater resistance could produce noise if the topology of either component made them susceptible to ground-plane noise.

Regards, Andy

So Andy if you would wager a ques for us, what would you suggest to us who want to do a mag wire IC but not screw around endlessly experiementing with gauges and configurations.

would say (2) 24 ga. twisted around each other be a good choice to get on with it?  Any thoughts would be appreciatted I also am not up for an more experiements on this for a while.

thanks in advance. 1000a

[guest1632]

I have 2 sets of anti-IC's...the newest pair's Hot run is a thicker gauge than the same leg on the older set.  If you take a look, the return side is ultra tiny.   like 30 gauge or smaller...

Do you think you can DIY the slinky effect of them?  according to paul speltz, that's the bread & butter of the design.   i haven't played with rat shack enameled wire but should, its so cheap.




Hi Matt,

If I understand correctly the spiral is the return and the smaller gauge running down the center is the hot lead.

Ray Bronk

[andyr]

So Andy if you would wager a ques for us, what would you suggest to us who want to do a mag wire IC but not screw around endlessly experiementing with gauges and configurations.

would say (2) 24 ga. twisted around each other be a good choice to get on with it?  Any thoughts would be appreciated I also am not up for an more experiements on this for a while.

thanks in advance. 1000a

Hi 1Ka, 

Given a previous poster's advice that 2 parallel cables is not good (transmission line) then 2 wires twisted around each other would be a good start.  I personally subscribe to the idea that signals get blurred if you use too-thick wire ... so 24g is as thick as I would go.

However, I would wager this simple construction would sound better if, instead of 2 x 24g wires, you used:
* 1 x 24g magnet wire for 'earth/return', and
* 3 x 30g magnet wires for 'signal'.

These all have to be twisted together - say, 2 or 3 twists per inch.

Now, it seems to me there are two problems with the above - ie. magnet wire twisted upon itself:
1.  the 'enamel' coating is so thin that if you bend the IC too many times, you might find the coating wears off where adjacent wires rub against each other ... and so the IC shorts?
2.  the signal wire is very close to the earth wire - so the capacitance will be high.  Of course, if the IC is only a couple of feet long then that's irrelevant - however, I have built some magnet wire ICs using a slight variant on the simple twist - which I recommend.

This variant is to use a 4mm (3/16") diam teflon tube as the 'former', round which you twist the magwire.  You "twist it" by taping the wires to the end of the teflon tubing (with 2" poking out past the end of the tube, for the RCA plug), stretching the teflon tube between two supports, grabbing the earth wire in one hand and the signal wires in the other and wrapping them round the tube in an "over and under" criss-cross pattern.  When you get to the other end, tape them in place again and leave a couple of inches projecting for the RCA.

Capacitance is less than a straight magwire twist, since the teflon tube keeps signal and earth wires spaced apart a bit more.

If you want to make up a shielded IC, use several layers of cotton tubing (eg. cotton bootlaces) over the magwire-wrapped teflon tube, and use teflon plumber's tape to 'mummy-wrap' each layer of cotton tubing before feeding it through the next layer of cotton tubing (the teflon tape makes it smooth, so it will slide into the cotton tube).  Then push the final tape-wrapped assembly into braided shield and connect this to the RCA plug earth pin at the source end only (so the braid doesn't become part of the signal chain).

All this cotton tubing simply spaces the IC wires away from the shield - so minimising the deleterious effect of a shield on the signal.

Regards,

Andy

[jb]

I wouldn't call this "balancing the ground" ... I'd simply say it's connecting the two grounds.  So if you used a 3m long, 30g wire for this connection, this wire would have greater resistance than a 24g wire.  This greater resistance could produce noise if the topology of either component made them susceptible to ground-plane noise.

Are you saying it’s normal and proper for a ground current to flow through the ground leg of an IC and that the IC should be designed to accommodate it? That’s nuts. The way to eliminate “ground-plane noise” is to eliminate any and all ground current flowing through the any signal path. Reducing the resistance doesn’t remove the current.

The ground leg serves two functions: It is the return path for the small signal current and it is the zero reference for the hot leg. The signal is the voltage between the two legs. Any other current flowing in the ground leg will alter the zero reference and distort the signal. In the worst case, where the ground current includes leakage from the AC line, the result is the well-known ground loop hum.

And what’s your fascination with cotton as a dielectric? Perhaps you saw one of the web pages that are floating around the Internet that purports to list the dielectric constant of different materials. Just because something is published on the Internet doesn’t make it true. For cotton to have the dielectric constant listed it has to be absolutely dry and very fluffy with no dyes or other chemicals that are used to improve the workability of cotton in high-speed textile machines.

The cotton tubing you recommend is not fluffy dry and it includes a host of other compounds including oil from your skin as you handle it. In case you didn’t know, cotton is very hydroscopic. It readily absorbs water, including water vapor from the air, and any thing else it comes in contact with. That’s why cotton is often used in shop rags and bath towels. Unless the cotton you use as a dielectric is fluffed, desiccated, and hermetically sealed, you may as well wrap your wires in a wet tee shirt. For applications where the dielectric is exposed to handling and the environment I prefer polypropylene. It is as good or better than Teflon, comes in a variety of forms, and doesn’t cost a king’s ransom. I’ve never seen a bath towel made of polypropylene.

[guest1632]

I wouldn't call this "balancing the ground" ... I'd simply say it's connecting the two grounds.  So if you used a 3m long, 30g wire for this connection, this wire would have greater resistance than a 24g wire.  This greater resistance could produce noise if the topology of either component made them susceptible to ground-plane noise.

Are you saying it’s normal and proper for a ground current to flow through the ground leg of an IC and that the IC should be designed to accommodate it? That’s nuts. The way to eliminate “ground-plane noise” is to eliminate any and all ground current flowing through the any signal path. Reducing the resistance doesn’t remove the current.

The ground leg serves two functions: It is the return path for the small signal current and it is the zero reference for the hot leg. The signal is the voltage between the two legs. Any other current flowing in the ground leg will alter the zero reference and distort the signal. In the worst case, where the ground current includes leakage from the AC line, the result is the well-known ground loop hum.

Hi Andyr, Well, pardon me if I am a bit over my head here, but ground currents, resistances, and throwing in the "skin effect" isn't this where the gauge of wire is the tradeoff? Trying to balance all this crap, so the result is affordable! cables? Now, ... I don't know if this is true or not, but in my lifetime, I have been bold by two different sources, that 22, 23, and 24, seem to be the overall tradeoff gauge say for the center wire. Now, I'd think then an 18 gauge would be good for stability and perhaps compromise of the ground return wire. What do you think? There's so much in how a cable is built, just as there is building a pair of speakers. For now, lol, let's stick to cables.

Ray Bronk

 

[andyr]

Hi Andyr, Well, pardon me if I am a bit over my head here, but ground currents, resistances, and throwing in the "skin effect" isn't this where the gauge of wire is the tradeoff? Trying to balance all this crap, so the result is affordable! cables? Now, ... I don't know if this is true or not, but in my lifetime, I have been bold by two different sources, that 22, 23, and 24, seem to be the overall tradeoff gauge say for the center wire. Now, I'd think then an 18 gauge would be good for stability and perhaps compromise of the ground return wire. What do you think? There's so much in how a cable is built, just as there is building a pair of speakers. For now, lol, let's stick to cables.

Ray Bronk
 

Hi Ray,

Weeell, as that "noted authority" jb just posted ... I shouldn't believe things I read on the Web about cotton.  So I guess you really shouldn't believe what I write, either? 

The IC recipe I wrote about earlier comes from Allen Wright's (VSE) "Super Cable Cook Book" - an excellent read which I thoroughly recommend.  Yes, I think the combination of:
* a 22, 23 or 24g solid-core wire as signal, with
* an 18g solid-core wire for earth/return

would make a good IC.  However in this setup, I personally would use the 24g wire for signal.

I'd bet that if you made them the same way, though, an IC made from 3x30g solid-core wire for signal and a 24g wire for earth/return would sound better!    The 30g wires are a right royal PITA to work with so that's why, IMO, people say "use 24g".

Why do I think this - because a number of people I regard as cutting-edge "thinking outside the square" type guys use 30g wire in their commercial ICs.  However, I did an unplanned experiment once which showed me 30g wire is only good if you can stop it from moving (or it loses bass) - so you need to wrap it together with a thicker wire to give it more mass.  Using 3x30g wires helps that process too.

Regards,

Andy