[guest1632]

Hi Ray,

Weeell, as that "noted authority" jb just posted ... I shouldn't believe things I read on the Web about cotton.  So I guess you really shouldn't believe what I write, either? 

The IC recipe I wrote about earlier comes from Allen Wright's (VSE) "Super Cable Cook Book" - an excellent read which I thoroughly recommend.  Yes, I think the combination of:
* a 22, 23 or 24g solid-core wire as signal, with
* an 18g solid-core wire for earth/return

would make a good IC.  However in this setup, I personally would use the 24g wire for signal.

I'd bet that if you made them the same way, though, an IC made from 3x30g solid-core wire for signal and a 24g wire for earth/return would sound better!    The 30g wires are a right royal PITA to work with so that's why, IMO, people say "use 24g".

Why do I think this - because a number of people I regard as cutting-edge "thinking outside the square" type guys use 30g wire in their commercial ICs.  However, I did an unplanned experiment once which showed me 30g wire is only good if you can stop it from moving (or it loses bass) - so you need to wrap it together with a thicker wire to give it more mass.  Using 3x30g wires helps that process too.

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

I would think that 30 gauge would be a bitch to work with.

24 gauge isn't to bad, but attempting to make a slinky 18 gauge and keeping it all together would be an interesting project by itself. I haven't seen the anticables, but from talking to Paul, that's about what the spiral return is. So that  come to think of it, the spiral would be longer for sure than the center one. So if a 30 gauge is used for the return wouldn't you have less resistance than a 24 gauge spiral wrap because of its thickness? Hmmm, interesting idea.

Ray

[andyr]

Hi Andy,

I would think that 30 gauge would be a bitch to work with.

So if a 30 gauge is used for the return wouldn't you have less resistance than a 24 gauge spiral wrap because of its thickness? Hmmm, interesting idea.

Ray

Hi Ray,

Firstly, on the subject of the resistance of an IC's signal wire vs. the resistance of its earth/return wire ... I can't see why it matters if one leg has a different resistance to the other leg - because they perform diffeent functions and are connected to different parts of the circuit?   

But I'm open to a logical argument why it's better if they are the same. 

Secondly, remember, 30g wire has a much higher resistance per length than 24g wire.  My tables say:
* 24g is 0.0842 ohms/m, whereas
* 30g is 0.339 ohms/m.

So 30g is over 4 times the resistance of 24g.

Thirdly, I would not use 30g wire for earth/return - only signal.  I personally think between 24 and 18g would be better.

Regards,

Andy

[guest1632]

Hi Andy,

I would think that 30 gauge would be a bitch to work with.

So if a 30 gauge is used for the return wouldn't you have less resistance than a 24 gauge spiral wrap because of its thickness? Hmmm, interesting idea.

Ray

Hi Ray,

Firstly, on the subject of the resistance of an IC's signal wire vs. the resistance of its earth/return wire ... I can't see why it matters if one leg has a different resistance to the other leg - because they perform diffeent functions and are connected to different parts of the circuit?   

But I'm open to a logical argument why it's better if they are the same. 

Secondly, remember, 30g wire has a much higher resistance per length than 24g wire.  My tables say:
* 24g is 0.0842 ohms/m, whereas
* 30g is 0.339 ohms/m.

So 30g is over 4 times the resistance of 24g.

Thirdly, I would not use 30g wire for earth/return - only signal.  I personally think between 24 and 18g would be better.

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

Let's reverse this. I would think for the return, you'd want less resistance to ground. I guess you have to stop somewhere. So as a possible receipe:

The 24 gauge wire would be just a straight piece aproximately 3 foot long. Solder that to center pin of each RCA, with some form of protection against shorting it to ground wire. Solder one end of 18G to ground of first RCA. Now the ground every 3 inches or so would have a spiral twist to it. This would keep the smaller wire somewhat protected. So you'd have 4 spiral twists per foot. Terminate it to the ground of the other RCA at the other end.

You might even be able to go to just 2 spiral twists per foot. This is where the R&D come in. Would be interesting to try.

Ray Bronk

[andyr]

Hi Andy,

I would think for the return, you'd want less resistance to ground.

Ray Bronk

Correct.   

The 24 gauge wire would be just a straight piece aproximately 3 foot long. Solder that to center pin of each RCA, with some form of protection against shorting it to ground wire. Solder one end of 18G to ground of first RCA. Now the ground every 3 inches or so would have a spiral twist to it. This would keep the smaller wire somewhat protected. So you'd have 4 spiral twists per foot. Terminate it to the ground of the other RCA at the other end.

Ray Bronk

Sorry, I don't get the purpose of twisting the ground wire spirally around the signal wire ... with only 4 twists per ft?    And how do you keep the signal wire firmly in the centre of the spiral?  If you're trying to make a kindofa "shield" to protect against HF hash then I think you're kidding yourself.  However, making a "normal" twisted pair out of the 2 wires (ie. say, 4 or 5 twists per inch) would certainly give you a measure of hash protection but not as good as an external braided shield.

Regards,

Andy

[guest1632]

Hi Andy,

I would think for the return, you'd want less resistance to ground.

Ray Bronk

Correct.   

The 24 gauge wire would be just a straight piece aproximately 3 foot long. Solder that to center pin of each RCA, with some form of protection against shorting it to ground wire. Solder one end of 18G to ground of first RCA. Now the ground every 3 inches or so would have a spiral twist to it. This would keep the smaller wire somewhat protected. So you'd have 4 spiral twists per foot. Terminate it to the ground of the other RCA at the other end.

Ray Bronk

Sorry, I don't get the purpose of twisting the ground wire spirally around the signal wire ... with only 4 twists per ft?    And how do you keep the signal wire firmly in the centre of the spiral?  If you're trying to make a kindofa "shield" to protect against HF hash then I think you're kidding yourself.  However, making a "normal" twisted pair out of the 2 wires (ie. say, 4 or 5 twists per inch) would certainly give you a measure of hash protection but not as good as an external braided shield.

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

I wasn't for the moment concerned with shielding per say. The spiral twist If I understand this correctly is in sorta a slinky fashion. That's how if I understand how approximately the anticables are made. I don't have the actual amount of turns/twists on each cable. I haven't seen a pair yet. For the copper version, $100 is a lot of money. They are supposed to be good cables for the money. That's based on the value factor. I don't know how much Paul actually spends time to make each cable. But I can't believe for the material and labor costs, you are getting that $100 worth. Just one man's opinion.

Ray Bronk

[andyr]

Hi Andy,

I wasn't for the moment concerned with shielding per say. The spiral twist if I understand this correctly is in sorta a slinky fashion. That's how if I understand how approximately the anticables are made.

Ray Bronk

Hi Ray,

It seems to me Paul's ICs are made that way for "marketing presentation" reasons, rather than any sound logical/scientific basis. 

So why don'tcha just try making up some "twisted pair" ICs.  They at least have a scientific basis as the close twist provides some RF rejection ... and the magwire is good wire.

Regards,

Andy

[guest1632]

Hi Ray,

It seems to me Paul's ICs are made that way for "marketing presentation" reasons, rather than any sound logical/scientific basis. 

So why don'tcha just try making up some "twisted pair" ICs.  They at least have a scientific basis as the close twist provides some RF rejection ... and the magwire is good wire.

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

Please explain. So then just use 2 pieces of 24 gauge? What do you mean for marketing reasons? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you, just wanting to understand. Apparently, people seem to think his cables are pretty good. Read the testimonials.

When I get a little cash that I can spare, will do just that.

Ray Bronk

[andyr]

Hi Andy,

Please explain. So then just use 2 pieces of 24 gauge? What do you mean for marketing reasons? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you, just wanting to understand. Apparently, people seem to think his cables are pretty good. Read the testimonials.

When I get a little cash that I can spare, will do just that.

Ray Bronk

I hope you're not just a Paul Speltz shill, Ray? 

No, not just use 2 pieces of 24g as I firmly believe the "earth/return" wire should be thicker than the "signal" wire.  Use, as I said before, preferably 3x30g for signal and 1x24g for earth/return or if this is too much trouble, say, 24g for 'signal' and 21g for 'earth/return'.  Either way, simply twist them together with 4 or 5 twists per inch to make a twisted pair or, better, wrap them round a teflon tube as I described.

The geometry of the anticable - the way you've described it to me - doesn't have any logical basis for being better than a simple "twisted pair" IMO.  But every mfr has to have a marketing reason why people should buy their products, rather than anyone else's.

Regards,

Andy

[guest1632]

Hi Andy,

Please explain. So then just use 2 pieces of 24 gauge? What do you mean for marketing reasons? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you, just wanting to understand. Apparently, people seem to think his cables are pretty good. Read the testimonials.

When I get a little cash that I can spare, will do just that.

Ray Bronk

I hope you're not just a Paul Speltz shill, Ray? 

No, not just use 2 pieces of 24g as I firmly believe the "earth/return" wire should be thicker than the "signal" wire.  Use, as I said before, preferably 3x30g for signal and 1x24g for earth/return or if this is too much trouble, say, 24g for 'signal' and 21g for 'earth/return'.  Either way, simply twist them together with 4 or 5 twists per inch to make a twisted pair or, better, wrap them round a teflon tube as I described.

The geometry of the anticable - the way you've described it to me - doesn't have any logical basis for being better than a simple "twisted pair" IMO.  But every mfr has to have a marketing reason why people should buy their products, rather than anyone else's.

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

I'm working under a slight handicap, because I haven't seen his cables. Nope, not a shield for him at all. Paul did tell me that the minimulist aproach was the best one. That part makes sense. But I don't know about the rest. Will have to see if I can get/borrow a pair somewhere to try. I don't want to pay that much for mag wire.

Ray Bronk

[Jolojl]

Hi guys!

Went to get some magnet wire today. I asked them to measure the diameter of the original cable, and while the return spiral is appr. 17 AWG they wrongly measured the signal wire to appr. 25 AWG (I saw it was wrong when occularily comparing the original with the wire bought). I beleive the signal wire to be between 28 and 30 AWG. Tomorrow I'll change the 25 AWG and get some 28 or 29 AWG.

Now for another question. I think it will be difficult to make the return spiral as good as the original. I suppose the reason for using a spiral is to avoid contact as much as possible between the legs. Please correct me if I'm wrong . I have some cotton piping laying around so now I've got two options.

1) Simply twist the signal and ground wire, as I've seen suggested in the thread. But that will keep the wires in contact.
2) Put the signal wire in the cotton piping and then in short turns twist the return wire around the piping.

I do not the reason for keeping the legs apart but if that is a good thing I suppose option 2 is the preferred one, if I can't make the spiral as the original one? Advice anyone?

Thanks!
Johan

[guest1632]

Hi guys!

Went to get some magnet wire today. I asked them to measure the diameter of the original cable, and while the return spiral is appr. 17 AWG they wrongly measured the signal wire to appr. 25 AWG (I saw it was wrong when occularily comparing the original with the wire bought). I beleive the signal wire to be between 28 and 30 AWG. Tomorrow I'll change the 25 AWG and get some 28 or 29 AWG.

Now for another question. I think it will be difficult to make the return spiral as good as the original. I suppose the reason for using a spiral is to avoid contact as much as possible between the legs. Please correct me if I'm wrong . I have some cotton piping laying around so now I've got two options.

1) Simply twist the signal and ground wire, as I've seen suggested in the thread. But that will keep the wires in contact.
2) Put the signal wire in the cotton piping and then in short turns twist the return wire around the piping.

I do not the reason for keeping the legs apart but if that is a good thing I suppose option 2 is the preferred one, if I can't make the spiral as the original one? Advice anyone?

Thanks!
Johan

Hi Johan,

So go to a hardware store, and get a piece of small diameter dowelling. Treat it like the 28G wire, and see if you can mimick the twisting like you have on the anticable's return side. Once you have it done, then pull the dowelling out, and replace it with the 28G wire. Just a thought.

Ray Bronk

[Gordy]

It may take a little practice but, it should be easy to make a very nice spiral run using an adjustable speed hand drill and a length of 1/8" or 1/4" ss tubing.  Insert the tubing in the drill chuck and tape a 3-4" section of your mag. wire parallel with the tube.  Make a 90 deg. bend in the wire and slowly wind the wire around the tubing, keeping the coils tight.  You'll be able to wind these very quickly with a little practice.  Not sure what i.d. you're looking for with your coils, using a 1/4" tube (and depending on the stiffness of your wire) you'll probably end up with about a 1/3" i.d.   We use this method at work for coiling thermocouple wires.  HTH...

[Jolojl]

Ray and Gordy!

Thanks! Two very good suggestions! I'll try them!

Johan

[guest1632]

Ray and Gordy!

Th anks! Two very good suggestions! I'll try them!

Johan
[/ quote]

Hey Johan,

Since you have a pair of anticables, how many spirals roughly per foot are there?

Ray Bronk

[Jolojl]

Hi Ray!

There are about 45 turns/foot.

Johan

[guest1632]

Hi Ray!

There are about 45 turns/foot.

Johan

Hi Johan,

Ok, now you know that you are making a loose coil, roughly 45 turns each foot. So if you are making a meter pair, probably about 135 turns total. Remember, a meter is 39.37 inches. So take it from there.The center would be about 3 feet, with the RCA's taking up the rest of the metric pair.

Now, if you are reading this Andy, this is making sense. Approximately 135 turns with a wire running down the center, with the 135 turns hoding the center in suspense.

Ray Bronk

[andyr]

Hi Johan,

Ok, now you know that you are making a loose coil, roughly 45 turns each foot. So if you are making a meter pair, probably about 135 turns total. Remember, a meter is 39.37 inches. So take it from there.The center would be about 3 feet, with the RCA's taking up the rest of the metric pair.

Now, if you are reading this Andy, this is making sense. Approximately 135 turns with a wire running down the center, with the 135 turns hoding the center in suspense.

Ray Bronk

Hi Ray,

Yes, that makes sense!    That many turns would hold the central signal wire, well.  However, I think feeding the central signal wire through a (hollow-type) cotton bootlace and then wrapping the earth/return wire in its 45-turn-per-ft spral would be a good idea... as it would make the IC a bit more durable. 

Regards,

Andy

[guest1632]

Hi Johan,

Ok, now you know that you are making a loose coil, roughly 45 turns each foot. So if you are making a meter pair, probably about 135 turns total. Remember, a meter is 39.37 inches. So take it from there.The center would be about 3 feet, with the RCA's taking up the rest of the metric pair.

Now, if you are reading this Andy, this is making sense. Approximately 135 turns with a wire running down the center, with the 135 turns hoding the center in suspense.

Ray Bronk

Hi Ray,

Yes, that makes sense!    That many turns would hold the central signal wire, well.  However, I think feeding the central signal wire through a (hollow-type) cotton bootlace and then wrapping the earth/return wire in its 45-turn-per-ft spral would be a good idea... as it would make the IC a bit more durable. 

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

Good call. A 30G or thereabouts size wire, and a say 24G wire both wrapped in some form of insolation like Cotton or long shoe laces might be an interesting idea for a project. It might be mor beneficial to just have the lace covering the 28G wire. Then it can be used to   also cover it at the point of termination so it won't short out with the ground return wire.

Ray Bronk

[andyr]

Hi Andy,

Good call. A 30G or thereabouts size wire, and a say 24G wire both wrapped in some form of insolation like Cotton or long shoe laces might be an interesting idea for a project. It might be mor beneficial to just have the lace covering the 28G wire. Then it can be used to   also cover it at the point of termination so it won't short out with the ground return wire.

Ray Bronk

Hi Ray,

IMO the cotton bootlace is only required around the central 30g signal wire.  The 24g earth/return magwire can then spiral around this.

Regards,

Andy

[Jolojl]

Hi again guys! Glad to hear your opinions!

So I'll do my option 2 where I cover the signal wire with cotton. This way I can also call it mine (or mine with the help of Audiocircle members )!

I also have an idea of trying the DIY recipe of VHAudio (double helix on teflon tube) not using 28 AWG silver but magnet wire. I would like to try silver but can't afford it. And I've tried silver plated solid core copper on speaker cables but preferred plain solid copper. Anyway that's for another time! If anyone else tries this, please let us know the results!

Johan