not another 5+ grand,little help please!!!

2bigears · « **on:** 23 May 2007, 02:31 pm »

5.5k for store bought room treatment????

my room is 15 by 17+-.ceiling is open truss the long way 8ft up.can a handy kinda guy make panels that come close to the dealers???? corners and first points[sides & ceiling] are important or starting points,and i can make the 2by2 defusers for the back wall easy enough.is it simple enough to do and how do you construct the panels????any help thks.[the room is solid walls so it is bright.]

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 May 2007, 02:43 pm »

Call Ethan at Realtraps.com and see what he can do for you before going the DIY route.

George

jermmd · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 May 2007, 04:27 pm »

Check out this Powerbuy at AVS. I'm not familiar with Chamelion but I'm thinking about giving it a try. Otherwise I would go with whatever Ethan at Realtraps recommends.

gooberdude · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 May 2007, 04:36 pm »

If you want a really simple kit that's inexpensive and requires NO guesswork or unsightly panels, check out Michael Green Audio's Room Tunes kit. There's no concern with reflection points - the Room Tunes controls the sound pressure in the room quite well for $300 IMO & IME.

It won't get you the performance of a Real Traps or GiK Acoustics room, but it'll do about 90% of what the good ones do for much less $ and may have better WAF, depending on the wife though! this is assuming you don't have 4 15" subs and huge boxed speakers. If you produce gobs of SPL, only go with a panel system...

that said, i like ATS acoustic panels. Same OC 703, great construction, low prices. i keep 2 of their 2'x2' bass traps in the trunk of my Honda.

Eighth Nerve Adept pillows are quality too...

shoving a truckload of fiberglass insulation into the parts of your home where your HVAC operates (and where you do too) may not be best for Indoor Air Quality (particulates from fiberglass). There's a scary article in this Sunday's new yok times about upcoming litigation in the U.S. regarding fiberglass insulation & lung/health issues.

richidoo · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 May 2007, 04:51 pm »

Depends what you want it to sound like. If you like an open airy sound with large soundstage and precise clear details and imaging at all frequencies, yeah it could cost you more than $6k for lots of high quality diffusion that works at lower frequencies. If you just want to tame the bass and can live with less precise mids then maybe $500 of thick FG traps in the corners will make a noticeable improvement and you can make those yourself but probably not as good or cheap as GIK. GIK is highly absorbtive though and may absorb too much mids and make the soundstage sound a little dead if you put them behind the plane of the speakers' front baffles. Real traps has a reflective layer that prevents too much mids from being absorbed. RPG Bad Panel has a layer that actually adds diffusion with your absorbtion, but those are pricey.
Rich

fajimr · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 May 2007, 05:12 pm »

2bigears

I went the DIY route with corner basstraps and 1st reflection traps.. made with something similar (ottawa fibre) to OC 705, 703. First of all check out Ethan's primer on his website (realtraps.com) then go about building your own. I've got photos of my bass traps here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=832 no photos of the first reflection traps though. They made a HUGE difference... although the costs of materials and time involved isn't minimal. I'd suggest starting there and figuring out your other needs.

Concerning the fact that the fiber is not good for your health... There was a discussion about that some time back- what I took away from it was as long as you didn't agitate the traps or scrape the back there was no reason for fibers to go floating off into the air. The backs of my traps are open- I tried to glue some burlap on the back of my 1st reflection traps and it didn't work. I'm not too worried- I've never seen a fiber sitting anywhere in the room.

good luck and document your progress... there have been other DIY threads in this circle, if you have the time to look you can find some good info.

cheers
jim

GregC · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 May 2007, 05:22 pm »

I could not be more happy with the results I got from the Eigth Nerve treatments in my room. If you take pictures of your room Nathan will give you a recommendation, and mine worked out great. I have flat frequency response without making the soundstage dead from too much diffusion.

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 May 2007, 05:24 pm »

Joe,

Quote from: jermmd on 23 May 2007, 04:27 pm

Check out this Powerbuy at AVS. I'm not familiar with Chamelion but ...

That company has done a number of unethical things you should know about, as described in my Fraud Report:

www.ethanwiner.com/fraud.html

Besides the sneaky activities you'll read about there, they have basically ripped off my company's products. After years of denigrating my company's MiniTraps for having a metal frame, they now sell a cheap knock-off with a metal frame. But it's not as good as our products. Sorry if I seem a bit disgruntled, but these are bad people and I think everyone needs to know.

--Ethan

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 May 2007, 05:37 pm »

Rich,

Quote from: richidoo on 23 May 2007, 04:51 pm

If you like an open airy sound with large soundstage and precise clear details and imaging at all frequencies, yeah it could cost you more than $6k for lots of high quality diffusion that works at lower frequencies.

Just to be clear, good diffusors are expensive because the designs are complicated and difficult to build. But even the best diffusors don't work at bass frequencies. The wavelengths are simply too long for LF diffusion to be practical, and you don't want to do that anyway. As you know, all rooms suffer from inevitable peaks and nulls at low frequencies, but modal ringing is just as damaging. To solve that you need to absorb rather than diffuse. For example, RealTraps diffusors are designed to diffuse from the midrange and up, and absorb the bass range. This gives the best of each treatment type, and it works especially well on the rear wall behind the listening position.

--Ethan

gooberdude · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 May 2007, 05:57 pm »

Guys, its the fibers you can't see that are most dangerous.... regardless of what the fiber is made from, you don't want to be breathing it. Since these are fiberglass, well, use your noggins and do some Google searches on the issue...

If anyone is curious just go and buy a pack of ultra thin trash can liners (not trash bags) that are way less than 1 mil thick. stick these on any exposed 'glass and you should be fine without interrupting the performance of the panels. Both traps in my car are wrapped in these ultra thin trash can liners after conferring with the acoustics gurus here some time ago. With a thicker trash bag, there would be reflection...the bass flows right through the thin stuff (supposedly).

If you can't buy them, ask a janitor at work for a few....these are what most office/cubicle trashcans are lined with.

craig223 · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 May 2007, 06:50 pm »

Here is a link to recording studio foam panels. This might a possible alternative.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/rec/navigation/recording-studio-foam?N=100001+305220

Good Luck!

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 May 2007, 09:11 pm »

As far as I'm concerned, if bottom line is everything, gikacoustics seems to be the way to go. Having made my own 2" panels, I know that it takes about $35-40 worth of materials to build a simple 2"x2'x4' trap plus about an hour or two of labor depending on how nice you want things to look. That means that the guys at Gik are making a whopping $15-25 above what it'd cost to diy. Sure they get wholesale discounts but I can't get those myself, so it doesn't matter to me. Real traps is the way to go if you have a bigger budget and need the most efficient traps. From the data I've seen, it would seem to me that real traps are the most efficient in size vs absorption because of the thin membrane absorption method is combined with broadband fiberglass. They look nice in a modern way, too. A dozen of the more expensive realtraps would still be less than half the budget you described.

bpape · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 May 2007, 09:39 pm »

Just for clarity, our products make use of a membrane also to minimize high frequency absorbtion but not completely eliminate it. You can see the test results from Riverbank Labs here - http://www.gikacoustics.com/absorption.html

Ethan's products are of good quality too - don't get me wrong. They do a good job. I don't want to take anything away from them.

Sometimes, the best course of action is to use a mix of different products. We have several rooms where customers use a combination of GIK and Real Traps - others use a combination of GIK and Eighth Nerve. Obviously we'd like to see them use our products exclusively but understand that this may not always be the best solution in the customer's mind.

The important thing is to look at the room and what it requires, then look at your budget. Based on those 2 things, you can select from a variety of quality products available. Skip the foams, skip the skimpy little stuff and the snake oil toys. Look for a product that does what the room needs. Unless the room is absolutely huge, you can easily treat a room very well for way less that $5.5k.

Bryan

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 May 2007, 09:48 pm »

Thanks for the clarification, Bryan, although, AFAIK, the realtraps membrane is also calibrated for increased bass absorption.

bpape · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 May 2007, 09:54 pm »

Absolutely. Most membranes provide that effect. You can see the hump in ours too.

Bryan

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 May 2007, 10:01 pm »

That's great to know. So all of your products have this membrane? Absolutely smashing prices, I love it.

richidoo · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 May 2007, 01:18 am »

Quote from: Ethan Winer on 23 May 2007, 05:37 pm

Rich,

Quote from: richidoo on 23 May 2007, 04:51 pm
If you like an open airy sound with large soundstage and precise clear details and imaging at all frequencies, yeah it could cost you more than $6k for lots of high quality diffusion that works at lower frequencies.

Just to be clear, good diffusors are expensive because the designs are complicated and difficult to build. But even the best diffusors don't work at bass frequencies. The wavelengths are simply too long for LF diffusion to be practical, and you don't want to do that anyway. As you know, all rooms suffer from inevitable peaks and nulls at low frequencies, but modal ringing is just as damaging. To solve that you need to absorb rather than diffuse. For example, RealTraps diffusors are designed to diffuse from the midrange and up, and absorb the bass range. This gives the best of each treatment type, and it works especially well on the rear wall behind the listening position.

--Ethan

Thanks Ethan. By 'lower freqs' I mean down into the midrange, for which diffusion devices are available, although expensive for designs that work well. It is often recommended to use absorbtion to defeat reflections of midrange and higher freqs, but I think diffusion can be a better choice when loss of ambience is a concern. That's why I mentioned the RPG Bad Panels as absorbers with 2D diffusion built in, similar in purpose to your RealTraps diffusors.

Diffusion seems to be recommended far less than absorbtion for small audio listening rooms. While I understand the need for more absorbtion in a smaller room due to bass modal problems, good diffusion has an important role in the mid & upper frequencies but is less understood how best to use it. Maybe because it is more expensive so perceived to be less valuable?

Quote from: bpape on 23 May 2007, 09:39 pm

Just for clarity, our products make use of a membrane also to minimize high frequency absorbtion but not completely eliminate it.

I didn't know that GIK panels have a reflective membrane, and I own some!

I don't remember seeing it mentioned on your website, whereas I did see it mentioned on Realtraps site.

I have some 8th Nerve stuff too, I like it.
Rich

2bigears · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 May 2007, 01:26 am »

came home from work to this good read,thanks much all.i am in Canada so with 10% exchange that number is more like 6k +- a few bucks with trucking.i gotta get wall corners,upper corners,first points-wall & ceiling,an some back wall panels.i may have to do it in steps as i am still hurting from last gear buy.thank the big guy the gear buying is behind,what a trip that was!!!! not sure what to buy first but would like to keep the first step a couple or three grand and see how that sounds.from all that you guys say,the room treatment will really help. thks, i am all ears for any more help

bpape · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 May 2007, 01:41 am »

The reason diffusion is not normally recommended in small rooms is that you simply can't get far enough away from it to sit in the effective reflective zone. Poly's can provide some benefit in many of the same situations and they don't have the high frequency limit - but they have their own issues - there's no free lunch.

Small rooms present a paradox as you need proportionately more bass control per cubic foot but it's a lot easier to make it overly dead for 2 channel listening. In a small room, you're almost better off falling back to the old school LEDE room layout.

There are ways around this. Can't say too much just yet. We'll have something out soon that will be an excellent solution to the 2 channel environment.

Big Ears:

I'd recommend doing the basic broadband bass control and some inital side wall reflection control first. After that, if there is more needed for things like speaker boundary interaction, height modal control, etc - that can come later. The initial shot will give you a good idea of how things can be improved without breaking the bank.

Bryan

PLMONROE · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 May 2007, 02:33 am »

I am perhaps the biggest DYI'er in existence. I have built several acoustic treatments and I also have some of both Ethan's and Bryan's fine products. Believe me, you can't duplicate their products and save enough to even begin to make the hassle worthwhile. So get what you need from them and their great support along with the products.

Paul