[BOK]

Bob,

Nice to see you chime in here.  I have always valued your ear/opinions regarding Mr. Bybee and his offerings.  Not to mention your vast hands-on knowledge and experience regarding all things AC related.  You and John C know Jack best, it seems.

I am awaiting 5 Bybees in my Bolder Power Bar and feel that that is the best bang for the Bybee buck.  Extra Bybees to separate the digital, again... As you have ALWAYS stated over time.

I have two in series on my digital cable now and am very impressed with what they did to the dig signal.

Please post here when you can, as I know the members can benefit from your wit and knowledge.

BOK

[rcrump]

Jack Bybee is a seventy year old plus curmudgeon and a lot of fun.......He is always playing with things trying to improve the product and last time I heard he was using the modules on just the return signal side which makes all sorts of sense.....I stopped offering the BybeeSucker as there just wasn't much interest even though I haven't heard anything that killed digital AC backwaves like the units....All those clocks need to be quieted and you are on the right track if you run a couple of bybee modules on the AC supplying each digital piece.....I like this board so I'll continue to post over here.......Friendly place by the look of things.....

[john curl]

I use Bybee devices both on my loudspeakers and my AC.  For my WATT 1's this is the best combination.  For inline, between amp and preamp, I only use Bybees with TV input.

[satfrat]

I use Bybee devices both on my loudspeakers and my AC.  For my WATT 1's this is the best combination.  For inline, between amp and preamp, I only use Bybees with TV input.

      Wow, two of AA`s heavy hitters, Curl&Crump, here at AC, welcome John. Discussions are gonna get more interesting now. I use multiple Bybee`s in these applications also but I find that 2 bybee`s on the digital coax make a considerable contribution to the dynamics, almost as much as the Ultra speaker filters. Of course, the AC Bybee`s help everything in my system. I also use dual inline Bybee`s on my subwoofer cable and haven`t noticed any lost of info,,, just the opposite actually with a tightened more dynamic presentation. I`m anxious to see if this all holds true as I move up to high end components. Regards, Robin

[rcrump]

One of the reasons John uses the Bybees on his speakers is the extra resistance in line as the tweeters dip to just half an ohm.....They make his amp happier.....Tomorrow Jack and John have made reservations at Chez Penisse in Berkeley and it is John's turn to buy.....

The Bybee filters on speakers allow better direct sound (focus) at the expense of reflected sound and just not my cup of tea, but can understand why someone would want better focus, but you can get there other ways......

[satfrat]

One of the reasons John uses the Bybees on his speakers is the extra resistance in line as the tweeters dip to just half an ohm.....They make his amp happier.....Tomorrow Jack and John have made reservations at Chez Penisse in Berkeley and it is John's turn to buy.....

The Bybee filters on speakers allow better direct sound (focus) at the expense of reflected sound and just not my cup of tea, but can understand why someone would want better focus, but you can get there other ways......

            Welcome to AC Bob, it`s refreshing to get another educated opinion on the effects of Bybees as I really don`t understand that much about them other than the fact that I`ve been impressed with every application I`ve tried with these little Boober`s. Regards, Robin

[Sa-dono]

Lookie at that...I become facilitator, and we get the big names joining, like Bob Crump and John Curl

All kidding aside, welcome to the forum guys! I'll look forward to reading your further thoughts and responses

Tomorrow Jack and John have made reservations at Chez Penisse in Berkeley and it is John's turn to buy.....

Sounds good...great food there. A shame I haven't been there in a while

The Bybee filters on speakers allow better direct sound (focus) at the expense of reflected sound and just not my cup of tea, but can understand why someone would want better focus, but you can get there other ways......

What are you referring to in regards to reflected sound here? Sustain, decay, and/or ambience?

[rcrump]

The ratio of direct sound versus reflected sound (ambience or venue information) seems to be tilted in favor of direct sound (focus) using the Bybees in the signal path......John said once that it was as if they used a different microphone in the recording, one that had a different pickup pattern.....This becomes really noticeable with live recordings as missing some venue information with the bybees....My point is you are throwing out some of the baby with the bathwater.....Sure most digitally driven systems will sound better using the bybees, but music will lose its raw edge as well as some life.....Other ways to get there without losing information is my point.....With that said there is nothing that works as well on AC mains.........

[audiojerry]

It is refreshing to have input from such very well known and respected names in audio. I love the fact that these seasoned veterans still have so much passion for the hobby that they like to get involved in these forums.
Some may be skeptical and suspect there might be an agenda that ultimately leads to extracting from our pockets. I don't see how - especially if they knew what tight-wads hung out on aodiocircle -    

Just to offer a little differing perspective: I used to own the older model Bybee speaker filters (that were housed in a box with spade terminations), Bybee interconnect filters, and a Bybee line conditioner.
I did not notice any change with the speaker filters; I don't know if the new version is dfferent. The line conditioner was effective, but once I got isolation transformers, the Bybee line conditioner became superflous. I  liked the interconnect filters best, but once I tried Triphazer interconnect filters, I sold the Bybee.

Mr.'s C & C, what do you gentleman think of the Shakti products like the Inlines and the Stone?

[rcrump]

Tightwads eh?  Curl used to hook up his subwoofer with clipleads  I haven't bought a new piece of gear since '94 when I bought a DAC a friend of mine built.....Everything else I hammered out myself or sometimes in concert with Curl or found used and severly modified......

Never played with the Shakti products other than putting one on top of our transport at the show one year and the system was so awful we couldn't hear the difference through break in of the whole system......Must have been six or seven years ago and they dropped off a stone for use by each room......

[john curl]

Bob, you are talking 'out of school'      
What I noticed with the inline Bybee's is that the microphone seemed to change from a condenser (hi quality, bandwidth) to a dynamic (mid quality, bandwidth) microphone.  I don't normally listen to imaging as much as Bob does.
 I like the Bybee's in my speaker system because they soften the effects of the tweeter, as well as I normally use a small resistor in series with them, just to minimize the dynamic load change at 2KHz.  My previous amp, an Electrocompaniet (sp?) Otala based design, used to whistle at 2KHz without an added resistor, so the early Bybee speaker filter was optimum for me.  The newer Bybee speaker filters would not have very much resistance added, approximately 1/10 as much, so it might be better with other speakers, but I would just have to add an extra resistor, to get back to were I started.  I know many enthusiastic users of the Bybee devices, and I generally like their systems as well or better than my own.

[satfrat]

Bob, you are talking 'out of school'      
What I noticed with the inline Bybee's is that the microphone seemed to change from a condenser (hi quality, bandwidth) to a dynamic (mid quality, bandwidth) microphone.  I don't normally listen to imaging as much as Bob does.
 I like the Bybee's in my speaker system because they soften the effects of the tweeter, as well as I normally use a small resistor in series with them, just to minimize the dynamic load change at 2KHz.  My previous amp, an Electroco ...

                         You echo my sentiments John, I don`t see/hear any of these limiting factors that Bob speaks of, on the contrary, it`s the dynamic expansion of the soundstage that has made my 18 year old speakers listenable. I am curious if these desirable effects will be transferred to my new Odyssey Lorelei`s. In my 6.1 system, I have the old Ultra`s on my mains, the old standards in a granite-like enclosure on the rears, and Bolder Cables new Ultra filter on my center. I find that 2 Bybee`s in series do a greater job of expanding this intensfied soundstage. I also find very little difference between the Ultra filter of yesterday to the one of today. Except for the price! Regards, Robin

[Sa-dono]

The ratio of direct sound versus reflected sound (ambience or venue information) seems to be tilted in favor of direct sound (focus) using the Bybees in the signal path......John said once that it was as if they used a different microphone in the recording, one that had a different pickup pattern.....This becomes really noticeable with live recordings as missing some venue information with the bybees....My point is you are throwing out some of the baby with the bathwater.....Sure most digitally driven systems will sound better using the bybees, but music will lose its raw edge as well as some life.....Other ways to get there without losing information is my point.....

I'm in complete agreeance with you here Bob. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. That said, Bybees are still very system dependent, and the inclusion or not will of course be based on personal tastes. So if you're one of the people with a million Bybees in your system, you'll see no complaints here. Whatever gets you closer to Audio Nirvana

[cryotweaks]

I have been doing some playing around with the Bybees on my system over the last few days, as well as I brought some to the listening session at Mad DOg's home on Saturday.  I made some interesting discoveries...

First, on my system.  I already have Bybees on the positive terminal of each driver in my system.  Since I am building the Plug & Play units, I started semi-burning them in on my system before shipping them (that is when they stay in inventory long enough).  Anyhow, I noticed when I placed a bybee on the positive binding post, so basically the signal to each driver runs through two bybees,   I noticed more of that "Holophonic Bybee Wow, but I have to say it softened leading edge transients a bit, and in some instances sounded too bright and glare-y.  Even after several hours of play.  

The next thing I did was put another set of Plug & Plays on the NEGATIVE binding post of each speaker.  I liked this quite a bit better.  It seemed to tame the glare and brightness (driver ringing?), but too much of the Holophonic Bybee Wow factor (I'm starting to like that term).  So taking the lessons from the first experiment, I removed the Plug & Play from the positive terminal.  So now I had the soldered Bybees on the Positive terminals, and the Plug & Play Bybees on the negative bindin post.  That was my favorite combo.  It removed the glare and ringing, and offered more depth than the soldered bybees alone without sounding phony.

Has anyone else experimented in placing a Bybee on th negative binding post/terminals of their speakers/drivers?  I'd like to hear your comments.

Now for the listening session at Mad DOg's home (a good time was had by all BTW), we all agreed on the increased depth, width, and focus.  We also noticed, after Mad DOg and sa-dono pointed it out, that there is indeed a bit of a loss of those leading edge transients, especially on acoustic instruments.  The down stroke of a violin piece that was being played revealed this.  It was subtle, but for people like us, its all about subtlety .  Alas, like everything, there is always a tradeoff.  Gain some detail, focus and soundstage and lose some transient dynamics.  

I would love to hear comments from anyone who has done similar tests.

Thanks!

[cryotweaks]

I asked Jack Bybee about placing the Purifiers on the return (negative) side of the speakers, and why I was getting positive results.  As it turns out, I was not the only one.  I have been talking with another Bybee user who was experiencing the same results.  He then forwarded me an email from Stewart Ono of Audio Direct in Honolulu (he is also a Bybee dealer, with much more experience than I):


"...I commented about the effect of adding a second purifier on the return leg to Jack a while back, soon after I became a dealer. The effect is quite noticeable and in my systems I cannot live without it..."

"...The positive terminal seems to add the highs (very broad sweeping generalization here) and the negative seems to emphasize the lows. In the case of the negative terminals on the speaker wire, the purifiers are actually acting in the amplifier's feedback loops, which is critical for sound..."

"...I've grumbled to Jack about the vagueness of his website description, especially for us installers.  Through careful experimentation, here is what I have learned, Jack's devices are a new class of devices and essentially I believe what they are doing is to  place the current and voltage into
correct phase. One could call them power factor correctors and essentially be correct, but whereas most power factor correction involves slowing the current further to be in phase with voltage (AC applications, here) Jack's units accelerate the current.

Once understanding this, then it is relatively easy to properly install the devices and one could almost determine a hierarchy for installation sites. Current and voltage phase shifts occur anywhere there is inductance. Output transformers,voice coils, power transformers, crossover inductors,
chokes, wire wound resisters are all prime sources of inductances.

In the case of speakers the signal going through the positive terminals have to enter the inductors but once passing through the speaker itself, has to go through the voice coil, sometimes encountering another inductor, depending on the crossover design. If you are running a tube amp the entire output goes through a transformer , of course, and so do most digital amps as they use an inductor to smooth out the pulse wave just before the speaker terminals.

What tipped me off to the nature of the purifiers was the fact that it did not work on the transformer leads to a tube rectifier. Sound difference was nada, absolutely zilch, something which puzzled me since it worked so well on solid state diodes. Careful consideration of the nature of the
vacuum tube and how it propagates it's actions and how it affects the voltage/current phase relationship led to understanding the purifiers. It also led to understanding why tube gear sounds so much better  (to my ears, anyway).

I'm not sure what speakers Cryotweaks has been using for his experimentation, so I cannot comment about them, but I have worked on the Eggleston Andras and have noticed that their tweeters are phase
inverted to the mids and the woofers. The problem of phase inversion of the drivers relative to each other is a problem I wish you reviewers would pounce on. In viewing the tech reports (and listening) to speakers like the Dynaudios and the Wilson Sophias, I cannot understand why such an expensive speaker can have such glaring deficiencies. This problem clouds the assessment of any component forward of the speaker. Even the speakers I sell suffer from phase anomalies. The old Hales had the
midranges inverted to the other drivers, as does the older Alon's. The Triangles have their tweeters inverted. Only the Vandersteens are phase correct but the thick grill cloth obscures any detail that they may have.
Sorry to rant about this, but all too often I notice that the phase problems leads to a perceived fault when Jack's devices are installed. I haven't tried the devices at the amplifier terminals, but I certainly will conduct a few experiments over the next few days and report back  on the results..."

[Hantra]

Fellas. . .

What's the best way to use Bybees with regard to A/C?

I found that the Bybee on my digital did really great things with the bass, and was less noisy, but it also took MUCH MORE from the music than it delivered.  

I'd be interested in getting the benefits WITHOUT the horrible drawbacks.

Do you just pop them on your gear, or on the outlet?  

Thanks,

B

[eico1]

cryo, you say you asked Jack about why it would make a difference which speaker lead you put the device on, what did he say?

steve

[cryotweaks]

In regards to the Bybees, yes in some instances I too have experienced them taking away more than I would like.  I really like them on the AC, either soldered on the mains coming in to the gear, or in a power cord (for portability).  I have heard that placing them after a transformer or inductor is a very good way to go as well.  That and on speakers either at the driver or binding post, those locations and usages are my favorite.  I have tried them on interconnects, and I feel they stole a little bit of the dynamics in the bass region.  In Mad DOg's system, the Bybee on his preamp (via power cord) was really nice, the interconnect Bybees in his system dropped the noise floor, but took a bit of detail with it.  The speaker Bybees in his system were very nice, but we did notice on certain recordings that the very front leading edge transient on an acoustic instrument was oh so slightly less dynamic.  You really had to focus to hear it.

As far as the logic of Placing the Bybees on the positive, that is due to the direction of current flow I believe.  But remember when you place them on the negative, that is the signal flowing back to the amplifier's feedback circuits.  

I am no engineer.

All I know for sure is that they can work wonders if you have the patience.
The bottom line is you really have to experiment on your own system, with the guidance of someone who has worked with these things alot.

Hope that helps

[audiodir]

I've finally joined this group since my comments were posted. In regards to application of the Bybee's on AC lines, I generally dislike them if they are done first. While the Bybee's will correct for anomalies in the supply side, there is too much going on after the power transformer and the component PS design itself may obscure the better features of the Bybees.

Taking that the Bybees work best after an inductor, the closest inductors other than the speakers and their crossovers are the power transformers.
Installing the Bybees in the speaker and only the speaker often serve only to point out flaws elsewhere in the system.

I personally like to place two Bybees in the B+ leads of the preamp power transformer first: the two AC leads supplying the high voltage in the case of tube gear, the AC leads going to a bridge supplying the  positive and negative rails for solid state. You may need more in the more complex p/s designs.
The insertion of the Bybees is extremely dramatic sonically and will emphasize both good and bad points of the preamp design. Then place them in the DAC or phono preamp p/s and then lastly the amplifier.
Installing and removing the Bybees is a simple task as usually the transformer leads are easy to locate and it is a simple matter to solder the Bybee's in series with the transformer leads. Inserting the Bybees in the power supply is far more important than placing them in the signal path. Bybees in the signal path correct for inductances in the circuit, but once the p/s has the current and voltage out of phase, that error is carried through the entire circuit and is further emphasized by any circuit anomalies.

Stu

[audiodir]

One  additional comment about the Bybee's. Although Jack is incredulous about this, I seem to notice that the Bybee's take 3 days to break in. For me that's 24 hours of playing. The installed units will sound bright and hard until the break in is achieved and then the bass kicks in. Jack cryogenically treats his units and believes that should shorten or even eliminate the break in period. Then again, it could be my solder joints, but I only use lead free solder currently as I find it gives much better detail. I use SN 96, a bitch to work with unless you use a fine gauge, since it is 96% tin and 4% silver. It is most definitely not eutectic and doesn't flow very well, especially on old oxidized wire.

Stu