[millionmonkeys]

Hi

I have just joined this forum and I wonder if I could ask for some help.

I am putting together a relatively cheap Stereo System starting with
- Integrated Amp
- CD Player &
- Speakers           (when budget allows I will add a turntable)

Given budget restrictions (less that AUD 3000), I've come up with the following choices:

AMP:  NAD C325BEE  or  Cambridge Audio Azur 540A V2
CD Player: NAD C525BEE  or  Cambridge Audio Azur 540C V2
Speakers: Orpheus Aurora 2 or Monitor Audio RS6

I'd welcome any suggestions or advice on which components you would choose.
regards

MM

[robert1325]

Hi,

I've owned the following setup :

Cambridge 640A
Cambridge 640C
B&W dm 603 s3

I auditioned many speakers including the Monitor audio's... They where nice. 

But with your budget, you can do much better.

For your source, I'd go with computer audio... Very convenient and future proof.  The sound is also very nice compared to budget CDP. 
Get something like the paradisea USB dac, Promitheus USB DAc. 
 Or an Imod or Squeezebox( stock version is not the best/ on par with Budget CDP) .   

For amps,  I'd go with a t-amp.  Something like the Winsome Labs mouse amp should do very nice with most speakers (30wpc)   and is much much better than cambridge or NAD amps.    Or a trends ta-10 if you feel like going cheap ( Fun for DIY mods)   , but you''ll need High Eff speakers. A tube amp could be nice to, the Yarland amps are very cheap.  ( and sound great)

For speakers I'd go with Omega speakers , Tekton design (ebay ) or obad unity speakers.  Or ofcourse the hawthorne Audio silver iris.  ( Love them) High - Eff speakers are very flexible,  you can hook-up a nice SET tube amp in the future if you feel like it.

This will get you a setup that's very musical and involving. On a much higher level than NAD or Cambridge "budget"stuff. 

Here's some internet links:

Source:

Paradisea  DAC :http://www.geocities.com/mhdtlab/
Promitheus DAC: http://www.promitheusaudio.com/dac.htm
Imod : http://www.redwineaudio.com/iMod.html
Squeezebox (eventually mods by boldercables) : http://www.slimdevices.com/

Amps

Winsome labs mouse amp:
http://winsome-labs.com/index.htm

Trends ta-10 ( look for modded version at audiomagus)
http://www.musical.ca/catalog/item/4377302/4344389.htm
http://www.audiomagus.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage_modern&product_id=20&category_id=2&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27

Speakers:
Omega
http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/ ( High shipping costs?)
Unity audio (obad, also dealer of the trends ta-10)
http://www.musical.ca/page/page/4377764.htm
Tekton design
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZtektondesign
Hawthorne audio OB drivers:
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/drivers.htm



Good luck!!! 

Robert

[smargo]

For amps,  I'd go with a t-amp.  Something like the Winsome Labs mouse amp should do very nice with most speakers (30wpc)   and is much much better than cambridge or NAD amps.    Or a trends ta-10 if you feel like going cheap ( Fun for DIY mods)   , but you''ll need High Eff speakers. A tube amp could be nice to, the Yarland amps are very cheap.  ( and sound great)

For speakers I'd go with Omega speakers , Tekton design (ebay ) or obad unity speakers.  Or ofcourse the hawthorne Audio silver iris.  ( Love them) High - Eff speakers are very flexible,  you can hook-up a nice SET tube amp in the future if you feel like it.

Thats the most ridiculous bias i have ever heard - digital amp and omega speakers (totally over-rated) I have tried at least 5 different digital amps and all of the line of the omegas - what your recommending to him will turn the pour soul off to audio forever - what he is leaning towards for himself will give him many hours of listening pleasure without the neurosis of break in and power cords and the like - lets be real!!!!!

[robert1325]

Whatever you say    many people use the t-amps with great enjoyment.

My old cambridge 640A was nowhere compared to the trends ta-10.  My dad owns a RWA sig 30, it's similar to the Winsome labs amp.  And his sig 30 is everything my trends is + more 

When I had my cambridge setup, I used to have problems listening for extended periods,  it sizzled and boomed to much for my taste.  Yes it can be spectacular at first but after 10 minutes you realize it's not natural.

But tastes vary ofcourse 

[Bemopti123]

Thats the most ridiculous bias i have ever heard - digital amp and omega speakers (totally over-rated)

I second that.  If it is to get a fullrange, hi efficiency speaker, there are better options out there..but they require more space. 

Hammer Dynamics, Brines and others are better options, I think.

[maxwalrath]

digital/t-amps seem to offer amazing bang for the buck compared to companies like NAD / Cambridge in my opinion. 

As for speakers, I'd model them around your musical tastes, volume preferences, etc.  The rest of the advice re: computer audio and digital amplification seems spot on.

[robert1325]

I was just giving some ideas for speaker choices...    The t-amp omega combo should be quite good from what i've read around here.

I really like my hawthornes wich are also very good value compared to most speakers in the under 1000 maybe 1500 dlr pair range.

[pardales]

I doubt you can go wrong with either set-up you mention. I have always liked NAD gear. Take time trying to audition different speakers after you chose the electronics you prefer.

[WEEZ]

millionmonkeys,

I prefer the sonic quality of NAD amplifiers compared to Cambridge. YMMV

I prefer the sonic quality of Cambridge cd players compared to NAD. YMMV

Haven't heard either speaker you mention, so can't comment. Both seem well reviewed.

Are Image Loudspeakers available in OZ? I would check them out. I would also recommend you hear a Rega Brio 3, if you can.

WEEZ

[Bob Reynolds]

I've owned the NAD C320BEE and Cambridge D500SE (now a Cambridge 340C) in my office system. I tend to believe in staying with the same manufacturer, but I really like Cambridge CD players. I prefer NAD integrateds over Cambridge simply due to NAD having both preamp out and main amp in jacks. Thus, I can insert an active crossover before the amp when adding a subwoofer to the system.

Regarding speakers, I'm neither a fan of ported nor floorstanding speakers. So I suggest an NHT sat/sub system. You'll likely end up with a much better speaker system and have more placement flexibility. You can buy the monitors now and add the crossover and sub later as budget allows.

[millionmonkeys]

Many thanks for all your comments.
The computer comments open a whole new area I had not considered

Bob R, I'm interested in your comments on ported and floor standing speakers. Could you explain to a beginner like me why you have this view?

Thanks
MM

[Bob Reynolds]

Bob R, I'm interested in your comments on ported and floor standing speakers. Could you explain to a beginner like me why you have this view?

Thanks
MM

I can try. I'm sure others can add to and/or correct what I'm about to write.

Concerning ported speakers... Why do speakers have ports? My understanding is that the port provides a mechanism for extending the bass response of a speaker. For the same cabinet volume and woofer size, a ported design will have greater bass extension than a sealed design. On the surface, this looks like a good deal. However, there are trade-offs. There is the possibility of port noise, especially in less expensive speakers. The location of the port may limit placement options of the speaker and may interact negatively with the wave coming from the woofer. Since I prefer having bass produced by a special purpose speaker, the subwoofer, there is no reason to use a ported design.

Concerning floor standing speakers... Floor standing speakers generally attempt to be full range speakers, at least more so than smaller stand mounted speakers. It turns out that producing bass in a room is always a problem. The bass frequencies interact with the room more than others simply due to the dimensions of the room. It also turns out that the placement of the mid and treble drivers in the room for optimal imaging is not likely to be anywhere near where the woofer should be placed for optimal bass response. Thus, placing a floor standing speaker in a room will always be a compromise. Another issue with floor standing speakers is the size of the cabinet. A larger cabinet will cost more than a smaller cabinet. A larger cabinet is more likely to have audible resonances than a smaller cabinet. Finally, most floor standing speakers are not really full range speakers. Also, speaker distortion, which can be several orders of magnitude greater than distortion of good electronics, is primarily determined by the woofer. A 6" or 8" woofer may have a decent response down in the 40Hz region, but its distortion will rise dramatically when pushed either lower or louder.

A sat/sub system offers several advantages over floor standing speakers - placement flexibility, wider frequency response, less distortion, can be bought incrementally, can be a much better value per dollar.

Hope this helps some.

--Bob

[JLM]

Welcome aboard MM,

Knowing a little more about you would allow us to give better advice:  types of music you listen to, room description (dimensions, finishes/furnishings, any significant others to consider), what sonic attributes you like/dislike, and your musical/audio background.  This probably seems like more work than fun, but its effort/time well spent to avoid buyer's remorse down the road.

The way this audio "disease" goes you may want to keep an eye open to various ways to upgrade.  If you're in a shared apartment, dorm, or the like I'd think about smaller pieces, where high volumes is optional, headphones, stuff that generally is less attractive to self-inviting friends/thieves.  For instance while in college I had nice headphones one year and added very nice small 2-way speakers the next while keeping the electronics in an old TV cabinet.  Small audio speakers can become HT speakers down the road.  A quality universal player can also move eventually into a HT system.  And a good source will always be a good source.

Virtually all speakers are designed to sound best when pulled out 1 - 1.5 meters away from walls and nearly all sound best when you can get a fair distance (2 - 3 meters) back away from them.  Do you have the space?  Does your domestic situation (wife, kids, pets, etc.) allow for that?  Perhaps you can put them back when not in use.  Can you listen at the volumes you want, whenever?  If these "reality checks" just kicked you in the pants, you may well consider using headphones for your serious listening and add cheap/small stuff for casual "in-room" listening.  An absolute killer headphone system could be as simple as a Eastern Electric Minimax CDP (smaller footprint with variable volume tube output) plus quality headphones.  Check out 6moons.com for a really good review.

IMO your speaker/amp pairing should be rated to reach 105 dB for best results.  Subtracting the speaker efficiency (at 8 ohms) from 105 will tell you how many dB of gain would be needed from your amp.  Watts convert to dB of gain as follows:  1 watt = 1 dB; 5 watts = 7 dB; 10 watts = 10 dB; 20 watts = 13 dB; 40 watts = 16 dB; 100 watts = 20 dB; etc.  So, typical small speakers (85 dB/w/m efficiency) need 20 dB of gain or 100 watts while a high efficiency speaker (say 95 dB/w/m) needs only 10 watts.  BTW, higher efficiency speakers are more dynamic (keep up with the instant/radical volume changes) too.

As Bob pointed out, satellite/sub speakers have some real advantages.  Other than the highly praised AV123 x-ls satellites with matching x-sub (see vendor site below) for 419 USD total, you may want to invest in better quality now and add a sub later (especially if you're in a small room).  OTOH many audiophiles don't do satellite/subs for a couple of reasons: looks too much like HT (just being honest here); blending of sound between satellite/sub can be a challenge; need stands; need for a 2nd sub (see the blending point); and need sub (or 2nd) output from pre/integrated amp.  Speaking of HT, the AV123 x-ls speakers would make for a nice stepping stone into HT (or separate HT) system.

The little digital amps are nice, but they do require care in feeding (see the efficiency stuff above) and they can get a bit pricey.  For 120 USD the Trends 10.1 looks very promising.  If you have the room (the above mentioned space requirements would be minimums) and have very basic woodworking skills (can you cut a hole into a small sheet of plywood?), the Hawthorne Silver Iris speakers are wonderful.  They give up some detail compared to the x-ls, but go deeper, provide a large/natural soundstage, and are almost 10 dB more efficient.  For 270 USD this Trends/Hawthorne pairing would be the perfect cheap/small compliment to a very serious headphone setup.

For 300 USD stock or 800 USD fully modded with decent power supply you can get a Squeeze Box music server (listen to ripped CDs and internet audio streaming)  that (with mods and power supply upgrades) gives state of the art sound quality.  Note that you'll also need a computer and hard drive space (with backup hard drive).  And except for one-time listening to a disk you'll have ultimate convenience too (you have to spend about 7 minutes ripping a CD before listening).  Additional stock Squeeze Boxes can be added (with amp/speakers) throughout the house to access your ripped music library.  As it has a digital volume control you need only to add an amp and speakers (until you add vinyl). 

If you're not computer savy (I'm not and had to give up my modded Squeeze Box) or it just won't work for you, the Olive music server could be the answer.  Olives start at 900 USD but has its own CDP, PC board, hard drive, and software pre-installed so except for internet audio streaming, it stands alone.  Olives do everything that Squeeze Boxes do plus offer improved connectivity (like to iPods).  Olives can be modded too for improved sound quality.  Note that modding Olives or Squeeze Boxes void the warrantee.  Note also that Squeeze Box and Olive are 2-channel only, no chance to use them for HT.

Another good/cheap source option is an Oppo 970/971/981 universal players for 150 - 225 USD (they sell direct).  Any of them can be modded later on, moved into the TV room for DVDs, or used with a separate DAC to good effect.  BTW the 970 in particular sounds darn good as is, price not withstanding.  The Channel Island Audio VDA-2 (see vendor circle below) is a very good DAC that can be improved without modding (or voiding the warrantee) by adding a better power supply and cables.  It's reported to work very well with the Oppo 970.

Your budget allow for lots of juicy options.  Personnally I'd also consider active studio monitors (small 2-way speakers that have their own amplifiers built-in, one per driver) that deliver huge bass, flat frequency response, and are very dynamic.  And can't forget Aspen amps (from OZ) if your handy with a soldering pencil.

[millionmonkeys]

JLM

Really, many thanks for your comprehensive reply! To answer your questions:

1. Room Dimensions: 4m x 6m. Plan is to have the stereo at one end (ie against one of the 4m walls), facing down the 6m. Room has  an opening into a hallway at one end and windows at the other. Two large couches are in the room and the room is wooden floorboards only. Room will also likely have TV near/next to stereo system.

2. Music Preferences: Boy, this is hard. A real mix. Rock (mainly older stuff from 60's and 70's, The Who Rolling Stones, Jethro Tull, tnaf), Pop (They Might Be Giants, Devo, Talking Heads), Acoustic Guitar (some classical, mainly popular), Female Vocal(all), World (especially North Africa, Egypt,Turkey (trad, drums), Mike Oldfield). Some Classical recordings. Very little jazz, rap or country.

3. Sonic attributes: (excuse me but I dont know the audio lingo): Crystal clear high notes are magic. A full, open sound for vocals ( hard to explain but some speakers sound 'stuffy' esp. for female vocals). I like solid bass but it has to be balanced with the rest of the music (this is especially important in say the middle eastern/african music where there are a number of different drums involved and the music doesnt sound (a)live if only the deepest drum dominates).

With these things in mind, would you add/subtract anything from the detailed response you already provided?

Many thanks again
Regards
MM

[shep]

Just my 2cts but there were two t-amps for sale here last night (search threads), a Mardis Trends and a Winsome. I have the former and it is marvelous. The latter may be as well. Put your money down on one (or both!) and you will be starting in a very good place! I don't know why smargo is trashing T-amps and Omega. I leave that for him to decide but I assure you either of the above 2 make seriously good sound when mated to the right speakers. Robert and I both have lots of first-hand experience with the Trends and you can take this as gospel.

[shep]

only one left http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41213.msg367535;topicseen#new

[JLM]

MM,

Your room is about the size of mine and roughly average, so the speaker/amp efficiency rules of thumb I listed above should be spot on.  If the walls/ceiling are plaster/drywall you may want to add heavy drapes or rugs.  Are you domestically limited on speaker placement or furnishings?

Since you enjoy varied musical forms and listen for the full frequency range I’d suggest you heavily emphasize the speakers as you shop and budget.  And based on the examples of music given it seems that you’d probably like it a bit on the loud side.  Are you free to turn it up is family/neighbors going to limit you?

Here’s my guess at translating what you’ve said into audio lingo:  Avoid one-note bass while providing a more forward midrange presentation with extended highs and good dynamics.  You can use this as a starting point in discussions with audiophiles.

I’d like to clarify something.  Is the TV a big one (or in a big cabinet)?  Will it be between the speakers?  If so, can the speakers be brought out to be a bit in front of the TV?  This leads to a HT versus audio issue, that being imaging/soundstaging.  The real magic of stereo is that it (under the right conditions) can recreate a 3D image that extends beyond the speakers, even the walls sometimes with each vocalist/instrument in proper position and of proper size (typically more behind than in front of the speakers).  This 3D image is what many think of as the entry point to true high end audio.

Frankly proper imaging is easier (if everything is done right) using more channels of information.  There is lots of debate about what “everything is done right” means, but the THX standard provides guidelines for HT and it sets speakers close to walls and the listener in the middle of the room.  This helps mitigate the big TV being in the way as the image is more with you in the center of the room.

Please note that most mass marketed stereo recordings don’t image very well for a variety of reasons, so if you dump serious money into a system and still “don’t get it” regarding imaging, its probably the recordings and not you.  So let us know if this system is intended more for audio or TV.  There’s no wrong answer, I ran a 2.1 system with a stereo HT receiver for a couple of years as I had only one system and limited funds.

[millionmonkeys]

JLM

Again many thanks.

1. I am somewhat limited in what I can do to the room but some drapes and other furnishings are definitely doable.
2. Regarding volume/neighbours, while we have a freestanding house and can play music reasonable loud, but I still need to consider the neighbours.
3. I love the lingo! (Does Google translate from English into Audiophile )
4. TV is on a 2m long cabinet and speakers can easily be moved in front of the TV. Smaller speakers could be placed on the cabinet (height about 600mm) if necessary.
5. System is definitely intended for audio but if flexibility allows HT use, then that's a bonus for me.

Just following up a couple of point you made rearding the Oppo and Aspen gear in an earler post. Excuse my ignorance but if I had the Oppo player, what other amplifier gear would I need? Regarding the Aspen, are you familiar with the Lifeforce Amps? It looks to me like I woulkd need a preamp with the Lifeforce?

Kind Regards

MM
 

[cdorval1]

I think you can do a lot for AUD3000.  I've used a lot of NAD equipment in the past with good results.  The versatility of pre-out/main-in jacks is great.  I'm not familiar with your other possibilities.

One thing you might consider is buying from well-regarded smaller companies, most of which sell online.  You will get better quality at lower prices this way.  If I were in your position, I'd consider the AVA integrated amp (http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/control_amplifier/index.htm) and the Salk MBOW1 speakers (http://www.salksound.com/MBOW1.html). 

That should leave enough for a decent CD player or digital system, and you'd have a great-sounding setup.  After I did this, I'd plan to eventually upgrade by adding a subwoofer and a new DAC.

Just my two cents.  I know there are twice as many opinions about this as there are people reading this.

Have fun!

Craig

[WEEZ]

If shipping costs are not prohibitive, cdorval1's advice is solid.

WEEZ