[mcgsxr]

Bob Reimer at CSS sent me out both the F1, and the B1 Reckhorn toys to play around with, in my pursuit of the best way to integrate my OB mains, and my OB subs, biamping directly from my Bolder modded SB3 – single source system.

The F1, found here http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=F-1 and here http://www.reckhorn.com/index.php?ln=en&prod=f1 , can be used to take a main signal input, and trim (individually) for mains, and 2 mono subs (which I guess if run with mono amps, could be configured to do stereo bass, but for the purposes of my experimentation, are run in mono).

I run a Bolder modded Slimdevices SB3 http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/Detail?no=372 as my only source.  I run a 50+ year old Magnavox SE EL84 Class A amp (console pull, gone through) for my OB Visaton b200 http://www.visaton.com/en/high_end/breitband/771.html speakers.  I also run Mach5Audio OB 12 inch subs http://www.mach5audio.com/product_info.php?cPath=48&products_id=41&osCsid=b8ec01c3f8b37d5bef2d2940fc82731d  (their highly affordable MAW-12, cast basket, low FS, high XMAX, DVC – run with 1 VC open doubles the effective QTS to a decent 0.54 or so).  I also use analog EQ on the subs, to boost the lowest frequencies.  My OB speakers are totally DIY, and are hinged, winged creatures of approx 40x36, with a slanted top.  See my gallery for details, on Audiocircles.

The issue I have been having, and why I requested the F1, is that I am trying to best integrate my mains with my subs/helper woofers.  I biamp, using a 300wpc plate amp, but in order to chain the signal together, I was having to use the onboard Xover of the plate amp.  A/Bing the mains run 50Hz and up through the plate amp Xover and just directly from the SB3 (I don’t use a preamp) gave me insight into the low quality (not unexpected) of the plate amp Xover, and how the 12db/octave slope would allow male voices to emanate oddly from the subs etc.

Not best.

So, a series of emails to Bob, to sort out rumours of QC problems around the F1 (found on German forums, but since disputed by the manufacturer {Reckhorn} into my Inbox) and soon enough the little toy was on the way to me, just outside Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

The unit is not large, roughly the size of a PS for a PC!  It seems well built, and solid, and has an included (if short) AC cable.  Bob assures me that he ships only 120v units, though 230v apparently are also available.

Simple instructions – plug source into Input.  Plug mains into main output, and sub into sub output.  I insert my old analog EQ between F1 and plate amp, to massage the FR, and off we go.

Nice to use 24db/octave slopes – much better ability to run a lower Xover, but trim out the voices from the subs.

I am not plagued with transparency loss, which is to say that the mains sound nice even when processed – the old Maggie is happy not to have to contend with 80Hz and down, as are the limited Xmax b200 Visatons.

It is important to note that the Bolder modded SB3 outputs a max of 1v, so I find that with the F1 in place, the volume needs to be turned up more, than with the SB3 directly into the Maggie.  Not a problem.  A short visit to the PC up on the 2nd floor, to adjust the preamp volume in Slimserver s/w, and all is well.  I suspect, but have not tested, that a 2v source would not in any way be quieter through the F1.

So, how does it sound, now that I have read all this crap about how you use it you ask?  Good.  Good enough to buy, and good enough to recommend.

Clearly, for the $50 or so, it is a great way to integrate mains and subs.  It also facilitates the use of a regular amp AS the sub amp, since you can trim the FR of the different outputs individually.

This also means that you could run OB subs off 1 output set to 80Hz for example, and then run a sealed/ported/horn/IB sub at 50Hz, for the fun stuff that OB has challenges reproducing in many rooms.

You can also run the mains and subs Xover at different frequencies – with the built in Xover on a plate amp, they are usually tied at 125Hz, or sometimes variable but both mains and sub are affected by the setting. 

In my case, using a plate amp with a non defeatable Xover variable between 50 and 150Hz, I know that regardless of where I set it, it is in some way combining with the 24db/octave Xover of the F1.  The solution, tuning by ear, is to set the mains to play slightly lower than the sub Xover, which allows the two to blend well.

Totally subjective experience, as are all my reports, as that is how I hear!

So, if you are using subs and mains, and are looking for a cheap and cheerful solution, perhaps also seeking to leverage an old SS 2 channel amp as a sub amp etc, I can highly recommend the F1 unit.

Yes I paid for the unit, BTW.

No affiliation with Bob, CSS etc, other than repeatedly spending my dough with them!

[ebag4]

Thanks for the report Mark, I have been eyeing the F1 since I saw it brought up on the Hawthorne site.  My B200's and Augies sound very good now but I believe the B200s will really enjoy being relieved of bass duties below 100hz or so.  For the price it is definitely worth a try.

[scorpion]

Here is the F-1 circuit. When people has been talking about small gain evidently the circled resistors have not been the specified ones.
As you also can see it is very easy to turn this unit into a 2-channel bass-filter. To me the filters look very much 12 dB/octave with highpass subsonic
filters in front.



/Erling

[JeffB]

From the circuit it appears that the sub-woofer outputs can not be used to get stereo bass.
I don't have any experience with stereo bass.  I know that below some frequency it is not suppose to matter, but since the B200 is normally crossed over fairly high, I would think that stereo bass would be advantages to have.
Does anybody have any opinions on stereo bass?

[Davey]

It looks like it could be easily modified to separate the bass channels.  The right hand side of R10 and the top of VR1 could be lifted and tied together.

The overall circuit looks fairly typical.  The circled components in the schematic could be modified to yield larger relative gain differences if so desired.

Cheers,

Davey.

[doug s.]

From the circuit it appears that the sub-woofer outputs can not be used to get stereo bass.
I don't have any experience with stereo bass.  I know that below some frequency it is not suppose to matter, but since the B200 is normally crossed over fairly high, I would think that stereo bass would be advantages to have.
Does anybody have any opinions on stereo bass?

my marchand xm9 stereo 24db/octave active x-over has a mono sum switch.  my rig is audio only, set up w/m vmps larger subs flanking my mains.  soundstaging is better overall w/the marchand in stereo.  however, someone else on the a/c forum says i only think it's better, because he says no one can hear bass soundstaging clues.     check this thread for other opinions:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40296.0

ymmv,

doug s.

[mcgsxr]

Not being a technical guy, I certainly cannot address the issues with the posted schematic - I will say that this is a newly released version, so I am not sure if that schematic accurately represents the unit I have etc.

I do believe that it does only mono bass, though for me, as I have only a mono sub amp, that is not an issue.

Great unit, ridiculous price.

[doug s.]

these are cheap; if they don't degrade the sonics, it seems like a good deal; you could yust buy two, to have stereo bass...

the only issue i see is if your mains are so efficient that max'ing the bass control's gain pot doesn't give you enough sub output.  i wonder what the gain is, for the sub output...

doug s.

[scorpion]

For the price I think the Reckhorns are surprisingly good value. The schema has been published on German Forums.
The F-1 was also tested with good result by German Hobby HiFi where one measured the 12 dB/octave slope.It should be quite easy to see
on the print if any changes have been made. There is a new version, but this dealt with the gain problem and some earthconnection.

Like Davey recognized it should be easy to adapt for Stereo Bass. The adventurous might feed the Bass into another F-1 and run in series with the same
settings to get something approaching 24 db/octave cut off. It is only the Bass cut off that might be troublesome.

/Erling

[scottw]

Any feedback on the B-1?

Was thinking it might be an easy way to integrate stereo subs using it's 'high cut' capability. Read the German forum through an online translator (painful). One of the complaints was that with the 'high cut' turned on, the output level was significantly reduced, making it tough for the stereo subs to reach the appropriate SPL's to match the main drivers.

Any word on if the circuit was changed to correct this? Got the impression from the German forum that Reckhorn didn't think it was a problem, but several on the forum thought it was essentially unusable with the 'high cut' turned on.


Scott

[Jolojl]

Hi there! 

Planning to get the Augies for my Silver Iris.

Is there anyone who can point to a good cheap active XO that is possible to adjust frequency cut between 40 and 250 hz with 24db/octave slope and with low pass in stereo?

Has anyone managed to set-up the Reckhorn in stereo mode?

Johan 

[doug s.]

if you can diy at all, you will be hard-pressed to do better than these - mono boards already assembled are $40; you would need to do a power supply & connectors...  plug-n-play x-over frequency modules are $6 each.

http://marchandelec.com/xm1.html
http://marchandelec.com/pricelst.html


their ready-to-go x-overs are not exactly cheap, but they are a freaking bargain, when compared w/other audiophile x-overs on the market, imo...

doug s.

Hi there! 

Planning to get the Augies for my Silver Iris.

Is there anyone who can point to a good cheap active XO that is possible to adjust frequency cut between 40 and 250 hz with 24db/octave slope and with low pass in stereo?

Has anyone managed to set-up the Reckhorn in stereo mode?

Johan 

[Jolojl]

Hi doug s.!

I've been looking at those Marchand XOs and they are very tempting. However I have no DIY skills and the finished product (XM9L-AA around 600 USD) is far above budget. If I can get somebody here to do it, this is really an option but not otherwise, unfortunately ...

I think it was you who suggested in this thread to get two Reckhorn F1 in order to get stereo bass, and view the price (about 30 Euros each), that might be the way I go, even though crossing must stop at 150 hz in such a case ...

Thanks for the tip!

Johan

[JoshK]

The Behringer CS3?10 has been reported to sound identical to a highly modded Marchand according to ThomasW on HTGuide.  He sent out the Marchand to get repaired and bought the Behr to tied him over, but when the Marchand came back and he couldn't tell the difference between the two he sold the much more expensive Marchand and kept the Behr.  The Behr is dirt cheap and I am sure you could mod it till your hearts content.

[doug s.]

there really wouldn't be much needed here - just hook up the power supply to the proper points on the board; same with the rca jacks.  i am sure phil marchand would give instructions that would make it a no-brainer.  he may even have a source for the power supply.  you could even stick it in a box, & make it almost look normal!    

yes, two reckhorns would work, & for subs, you wouldn't want to be going even to 150hz.  but, i know the quality of the marchand stuff is excellent, & i would go that way, if it were my system...

doug s.

Hi doug s.!

I've been looking at those Marchand XOs and they are very tempting. However I have no DIY skills and the finished product (XM9L-AA around 600 USD) is far above budget. If I can get somebody here to do it, this is really an option but not otherwise, unfortunately ...

I think it was you who suggested in this thread to get two Reckhorn F1 in order to get stereo bass, and view the price (about 30 Euros each), that might be the way I go, even though crossing must stop at 150 hz in such a case ...

Thanks for the tip!

Johan

[doug s.]

there ya go - a cheap alternative to a marchand, that's plug-n-play...  pretty impressive, if true - the same thing was said about the marchand, when compared to the three-times-the-price bryston x-over...

doug s.

The Behringer CS3?10 has been reported to sound identical to a highly modded Marchand according to ThomasW on HTGuide.  He sent out the Marchand to get repaired and bought the Behr to tied him over, but when the Marchand came back and he couldn't tell the difference between the two he sold the much more expensive Marchand and kept the Behr.  The Behr is dirt cheap and I am sure you could mod it till your hearts content.

[Jolojl]

Hi doug s. and JoshK!

The Marchand I'm sure is good quality and reliable. If I turn to make this a DIY project it's definitely my choice.

The Behringer is the CX2310 I think and I've been doubtful about it (prejudice ). Now I've received two recommendations for it and I'll have a further look at it (one, minor, problem is that it just has XLR inputs ...).

Thanks guys! 

Johan

[doug s.]

hi johan,

you can get quality xlr to rca adapters at any pro audio shop for ~$8 a piece...

doug s.

Hi doug s. and JoshK!

The Marchand I'm sure is good quality and reliable. If I turn to make this a DIY project it's definitely my choice.

The Behringer is the CX2310 I think and I've been doubtful about it (prejudice ). Now I've received two recommendations for it and I'll have a further look at it (one, minor, problem is that it just has XLR inputs ...).

Thanks guys! 

Johan

[zobsky]

Hi doug s. and JoshK!

The Marchand I'm sure is good quality and reliable. If I turn to make this a DIY project it's definitely my choice.

The Behringer is the CX2310 I think and I've been doubtful about it (prejudice ). Now I've received two recommendations for it and I'll have a further look at it (one, minor, problem is that it just has XLR inputs ...).

Thanks guys! 

Johan

Well, I've owned a CX2310 for the past 3-4 years and use it on and off to test builds and drivers before I can get a permanent crossover going, so here are my observations
1. works well enough, .. though I get a pop when turning it on and off . I don't own any "audiophile approved" active crossover so I can't compare.
2. with some amps, I get a hum . I used a 3 prong->2 prong adapter and that killed the hum.
3. the pots got really noisy over time. Last weekend, I stripped it down and shot all the pots and switches with caig deoxit, followed by a thorough workout. Problem solved.
4. The 3 way mono setting is useful when you want to bandpass a driver ie. high pass it and low pass it.
5. likewise, the 2way+subwoofer configuration is quite useful too.

In short, I think it's okay for the price (though not of the best build quality) the potentiometers gave me a scare for a while.

Also, regarding the XLR cables, I  built mine using  a bunch of affordable XLR and RCA plugs (procured from  my local surplus  shop at $1 - $2 each, IIRC)connected to lengths of shielded 2 conductor microphone cable (2 conductors + copper braid shield). I made sure to make the sub. out cable extra long, for convenience. Watch out for the cost of cabling, .. it can quickly add up.

[Jolojl]

Hi again doug s.! 

Yes, just checked that out and it's not that expensive with adapters. But I need to start soldering to be able to make cables (need a lot of cables with the XO ...).

Johan 


Hi zobsky! 

Thanks for your very informative answer! I was wondering, except for the noise issue, do you notice any difference in sound quality to the permanent XO you make afterwards? Would you say the Behringer is good enough for permanent use?

Thanks!
Johan