[PJ234]

I've been playing around lately with home made interconnects, and have a couple of very basic (dumb?) questions:

-I believe the wire connected to the center pin of an RCA connector carries the signal...is this correct?

-What purpose does the other wire serve (ie, is it for shielding, etc.?)

Thanks for humoring me!

[Daryl]

You always will have two conductors when you connect one electric device to another.

The electricity will flow in on one conductor and out on the other you cannot have a dead end except in the rare case of electrostatic connections which is a different issue all together.

In automotive connections the body of the car is the return line so there are still two conductors although it appears otherwise.

The outer conductor with RCA's is the shield which serves as the return for the center signal conductor or the zero reference by which the voltage of the signal conductor can be judged and is a low impedance drain keeping electrostatic fields from influencing the center conductor.

[Kevin Haskins]

Here is my directions for my Canare interconnect kit.    It shows some simple diagrams that apply to pretty much all interconnects. 

http://www.diycable.com/main/pdf/Canare.pdf

[PJ234]

Thanks for humoring me guys.  Believe it or not I was once an electrical engineering student (was being the operative word), and I always struggled with the concepts of electricity.  I wasn't sure if an interconnect was one leg in a larger circuit, or 2 full legs of its own little circuit.

-Which conductor determines the sound of the cable (or is it both?) 

-When using different conductors for each leg (gauge, material, etc.) what are general rules of thumb to follow?  For example, would you use a smaller gauge for the center pin, and a larger gauge for the ground/drain?

[1000a]

I have two different parts to each question. (1 is would the below be safe electrically) and (2 would the below possibly cause a different presentation to the music vs. equal size return and signal wires) ie; more bass, less bass and so on?

A-Does anybody know advantages and disadvantages off using a return leg that is larger than the signal wire, say the return is 18ga and the signal is 30ga.?

B-Does anybody know advantages and disadvantages off using 2 returns say 22ga. instead of 1, still using a single signal wire? 

Can this be done - at least not be dangerous electrically?   If so I can try the various combos and rev. the audio qualities on my own.

Thanks in advance,

[DSK]

I believe the Eichmann cables have a larger return leg. I can't recall if the reasons are explained on their website or not, take a look.

[1000a]

thanks i noticed some manu seem to do this, i will go study theirs.

[andyr]

I have two different parts to each question. (1 is would the below be safe electrically) and (2 would the below possibly cause a different presentation to the music vs. equal size return and signal wires) ie; more bass, less bass and so on?

A-Does anybody know advantages and disadvantages off using a return leg that is larger than the signal wire, say the return is 18ga and the signal is 30ga.?

B-Does anybody know advantages and disadvantages off using 2 returns say 22ga. instead of 1, still using a single signal wire? 

Can this be done - at least not be dangerous electrically?   If so I can try the various combos and rev. the audio qualities on my own.

Thanks in advance,

Hi 1000a (And this references you too, PJ234!  ),

A:  What are the advantages/disadvantages off using a return leg that is larger than the signal wire - say the return is 18ga and the signal is 30ga.?

If you are using the common RCA unbalanced ICs then the 'return' wire has two functions:
a) it completes the electrical circuit, and
b) it connects the signal earth of the two components.

Because wire has resistance, if you use too-thin wire for the earth wire, you will get a slight relative voltage difference in the signal earth planes of the two components.  This can produce undesirable sonic effects.

(This may also be true of balanced ICs but I have no experience with them.)

Increasing the guage of the 'return' wire will decrease this relative earth-voltage difference - hence, as DSK posted, Eichmann's ICs have a thicker return wire ... the thickness optimised relative to the signal wire, according to a "secret" formula which Mr Eichmann developed.

B:  The advantages and disadvantages off using 2 returns say 22ga. instead of 1, still using a single signal wire?

Aha ... now we get into serious voodoo - which you can choose to embrace or scoff at!!   

I personally believe there are advantages in terms of purity of signal when using thin wires - 24g, max.  So, yes, I would say using 1 x 24g for signal and 2 x 24g wires for earth/return would be better than 1 and 1.

However, I would say a better result would be obtained by using 3 x 30g wires for signal and 1 x 24g wire for earth/return ... this is what I use for my ICs and hookup wire inside amps.  However, one important point which I have discovered by experimentation - but which other people have also confirmed to me - is that the very thin wires must not be allowed to 'hang' freely but need to twisted all together with the 24g wire, to form a more massive 'cable'.  Not doing this (and letting them hang free) with rob you of bass! 

None of the above is "dangerous" in an electrical sense. 

Regards,

Andy

[BobM]

Go to the FAQ section at www.audioasylum.com and look in the DIY Cables section. Find Jon Risch's website and IC construction notes. Jon is very thorough in his description and presentation and the resulting interconnects (using Belden 89259 and 89248 in a twisted pair) are very good.

No need to fiddle with other materials unless you are experimenting and like to play.

Enjoy,
Bob

[PJ234]

Does anyone have any theories or experience with using different materials for signal and ground legs?  Do both conductors affect sound equally?

Thanks!

[andyr]

Does anyone have any theories or experience with using different materials for signal and ground legs?  Do both conductors affect sound equally?

Thanks!

Why would U want to use different materials?

Regards,

Andy

[1000a]

Thanks for the tips guys very good, I appreciate it.  Andyr I made a 30ga mag wire IC just a single wire run and it has great articulate bass that knocks me over (could the 18ga return be helping the bass, no clue- need more prototypes) and it is not twisted.  From my limited understanding but insane hours of reading research from what I understand twisting has an effect of extending HF on single + and single - not twisted magwire Anrti-Cable SC, does it apply here, no clue.  I do understand twisting to have good noise rejection qualities.

Anyway I can't wait to try out your ideas  and see how they work now that I do not have to worry about electrical fires, blown amps and the like  .  (although if the enamel wears off 2 wires in close proximity on my many multiple mag wire PCs I'll see you guys in the afterlife  ).  Think I'll reduce these to just 3 14 ga. wire?! 

Now the 2-3 IC signal wires (twisted definitely - the magwire is naked and vulnerable to being moved, torn and so on) can't wait to try and see what I can get out of those and others.  So I will be posting here, another or a new thread if you suggest.

What I need now is a good robust but cheap RCA I can use for each prototype, I will eventually use ecihmans when I decide on a keeper.  I have used the Rat Shack gold but they are 15. (4) and not terribly robust on the tail end parts of the RCA.  It is not important they sound excellent just that I keep a consistant reference point for now and even something that can take some resoldering a few times maybe.

I used solderless 1.00 RCAs on the first 30ga. mag IC I made which was certainly bettered by the Gold Rat Shack but surprizingly not by much, which leads me to beleve for now the RCA is not terribly important until I'm close to my final desision.

Do you have any experience with the metal (silver color) Dayton from Parts Express I have heard they are good for RCAs on the cheap and well made.  Any others you might know of?  The Daytons are 10. (4) and would fit the bill, me not knowing any others.

[andyr]

Andyr I made a 30ga mag wire IC just a single wire run and it has great articulate bass that knocks me over (could the 18ga return be helping the bass, no clue- need more prototypes) and it is not twisted.  From my limited understanding but insane hours of reading research from what I understand twisting has an effect of extending HF on single + and single - not twisted magwire Anrti-Cable SC, does it apply here, no clue.  I do understand twisting to have good noise rejection qualities.

Anyway I can't wait to try out your ideas  and see how they work now that I do not have to worry about electrical fires, blown amps and the like  .  (although if the enamel wears off 2 wires in close proximity on my many multiple mag wire PCs I'll see you guys in the afterlife  ).  Think I'll reduce these to just 3 14 ga. wire?! 

What I need now is a good robust but cheap RCA I can use for each prototype, I will eventually use eichmanns when I decide on a keeper. 

Hi 1000a,

The "experiment" I think I referred to was having 2 x 30g wires (ie. 1 hot & 1 return), not twisted ... and this definitely lost bass (theoretically, due to the "triboelectric" effect?).  Maybe your use of an 18g return fixed this "problem"?

IME, twisting certainly helps HF rejection and doesn't have any negative effects in reasonable lengths (it increases capacitance) ... so why not do it!!  Twisting the 30g 'hot' wire around a 24g 'return' wire certainly gives the resulting cable more mass and eliminates this problem.

However, I think you might have to be careful about using twisted magwire ... as the polyurethane coating is so thin! 

Regards,

Andy

[1000a]

"However, I would say a better result would be obtained by using 3 x 30g wires for signal and 1 x 24g wire for earth/return ... this is what I use for my ICs and hookup wire inside amps."

I thought I'd try this style first, and see what I think and go from there.  Any choices you like in RCAs?  Thanks,

[andyr]

"However, I would say a better result would be obtained by using 3 x 30g wires for signal and 1 x 24g wire for earth/return ... this is what I use for my ICs and hookup wire inside amps."

I thought I'd try this style first, and see what I think and go from there.  Any choices you like in RCAs?  Thanks,

I hope it works for you too!! 

BTW, if you use this for hookup wire inside amps etc. then, yes, you can just twist the 4 wires together (you'll find you need slightly longer 30g wires as they basically just twist around the thicker, less flexible 24g wire) but for ICs I twist the triple and the single around a 4mm teflon tube as the central "core".  Anchor the ends of the teflon tube (eg. between the legs of two chairs!), tape or heatshrink the wires to one end of the teflon tube (with a couple of inches poking out from the end of the tube), hold the 'hot' triple in one hand and the 'return' in the other and criss-cross, under-and-over wrap the wires around the teflon tube.  Then tape/heatshrink the wires at the other end of the tube - again, allow a couple of inches to project past the end of the tube for the RCA connection.

Re. RCA plugs ... I like Eichmann Bullets for the best or NeoTech locking RCAs for second-best!   

Regards,

Andy

[1000a]

Thanks Andy some great suggestions, I'll need to order some new RCAs to get going on the next couple of prototypes.  I'll post once I've listened to the next one.  Thanks,

[PJ234]

Does anyone have any theories or experience with using different materials for signal and ground legs?  Do both conductors affect sound equally?

Thanks!

Why would U want to use different materials?

Regards,

Andy

Cost!

My thinking is that if the center pin conductor is the one that most influences sound, using the very best or most expensive conductor here and something less expensive for the ground would save significant $$.

For example, I have been playing mostly with magnet wire on my IC's.  I'm wondering if I were to continue to use the magnet wire for the ground, but other 'better' conductors for the center pin, if this would have the desired effect.

[andyr]

Cost!

My thinking is that if the center pin conductor is the one that most influences sound, using the very best or most expensive conductor here and something less expensive for the ground would save significant $$.

For example, I have been playing mostly with magnet wire on my IC's.  I'm wondering if I were to continue to use the magnet wire for the ground, but other 'better' conductors for the center pin, if this would have the desired effect.

Don't think of 'magnet' wire as being some cheap crap wire!    Yes, you can buy different mfrs magnet wire and some is supposed to be better than others by being OFC, "CC (continuous cast)", coated with a magic oil made from squashed Paris-dogs .... etc. etc. but, basically, as the polyurethane dielectric is so much thinner than the thinnest teflon coating, it has a minimum (negative) effect on the sound.

Regards,

Andy

[1000a]

Can't vouch for silver or palladium never tried it (eventually might after I have done all my experiments with mag- but seriously I am in no hurry to bother), nor can I vouch for really expensive wire SC or ICs or PCs.

But I can tell you IMS w a big push pull Jolida its potential was about 70% realised before I put in my DIY magwire, PCs, SC, and ICs.  This stuff has openned this amp wide open, really incredible, in fact shocking to me after owning it since 2002.  I think anybody who takes the time to do a little experimenting with mag wire no matter how much they already spent on cables will be pretty knocked out by them.

and I agree I think what happens with the magwire is the dielectric is so thin, it gives the wire itself a serious edge over almost anything that requires Teflon and the like.  I also was shocked I had no emi rfi issues what so ever using it - coming from a world of wire bundled up like people in Siberia.

For people to get some perspective on this stuff it is helpful to study Mappleshade's website, loaded w it, IC,SC, PCs,and a power strip and drop in on the comments around here on the Anti-Cable people are gaga about.  I am hoping to encourage more people to DIY with this stuff so many of us might exchange our impressions of it and so on....

Sorry for all the flag waving I am just knocked out by the stuff

[Bob in St. Louis]

Regarding the terminations, I've had the understanding that a low mass spade type would be better than "energizing" a heavy chunk of material like RCA's or banana's with their bulky threaded outer jackets/collars.
Any opinions?

Bob