TBI Magellan- 6.5" or 8" driver to match with Compact Hemps

cooch · « **on:** 27 Apr 2007, 02:37 pm »

Waiting for my Compact Hemps to arrive......will be getting the TBI Magellan Subs but not sure if i should get the 6.5 " or 8" driver in the subs to match the Compact Hemps 8" driver.......any opinions? thanks

Cooch

jrebman · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 02:00 pm »

IMO, the smaller TBI is far more musical and faster than the larger one. It doesn't go as low as it's larger brother, but it goes plenty low enough for everything except HT audio fireworks. Considering how fast and responsive Louis' speakers are, I'd say the smaller TBI is the way to go.

The real question is whether or not you will really need a sub with the compact hemps. I think if I were you I'd just let the hemps break in and then decide. You are going to get a beautifully coherent presentation with the single driver speakers and trying to seamlessly integrate a sub into that is going to be difficult at best. The TBI subs (unless something has changed since I sold mine) don't have an infinitely variable phase control -- only a 0/180 switch, and referring to my comments about difficulty factor above, a switch is going to give you far less adjustability, which translates into a practically impossible ability to integrate them with single driver speakers.

YMMV, but if it were me, I'd give the speakers a good long trial on their own and then if they don't do it for you, look for a small, sealed 10" sub with infinitely variable phase control -- examples: ACI ForceX and AV123's ULW-10.

Hope this helps,

Jim

cooch · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 02:09 pm »

Jim, thanks alot. I might just wait and see...and i see your point about the smaller driver working better, i was thinking that myself....but about the phase control, the subs won't be in corners, they will probably be next to or behind the speakers, where i don't think the phase control will really come into play..at least that is the case with other subs i have had...i thought that the phase control really made a difference when the subs were in corners or away from the speakers close to the listening position...am i right in that statement or are there other factors i am missing...thanks again

cooch · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 02:52 pm »

Jim, the ACI Force XL is 2nd on my list, if a sub is needed...Can i ask u why u sold your tbi's? what did u replace them with? thanks again

Cooch

Songforyou · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 04:00 pm »

I use a pair of the 6.5" magellans with my Omega Super 3s. I have them placed out from the walls close to the speakers. I am very happy with the combination. I run the Super 3s full range and feed the TBI amp with another set of speaker cables. I am very happy with the combination. I have used the TBI with a variety of speakers and have never experienced integration problems. It is a fast, unobtrusive and very reasonably priced sub.

jrebman · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 04:01 pm »

Cooch,

Here's the story, and I hope it answers your questions -- or at least the ones I feel competent enough to answer.

I bought the TBI when I had a set of Horn Shoppe horns -- I didn't have any corners and felt that in my room with 9 foot ceilings, that there was just nothing below 75 Hz or so, and while I don't require tons of bass, I do prefer something at around 40 Hz as a minum bottom end. I was never able to get the sub to integrate seamlessly with the Horns -- it was ok, but the Horns are so articulate and image so well that just about anything added will detract from that. So, I found that no matter how much I tried, the soundstage would collapse, the imaging would suffer, or something else about the sound picture as a whole was just not quite right with the subs. That is not to say that there is any issue with the TBI -- and I suspect that if anything would have worked it would have been the TBI or one of the other smaller, sealed subs, and I also knew that because of the situation I had that a variable phase control would be needed to do the job correctly. I didn't have any corners or places near the listening position to place the sub in, so I can't comment on whether or not a variable phase control is necessary in that application.

Then along came Abby... A neighbor had got a pair of Abbys on loan from a local dealer, and as it turned out she didn't like them in her setting, so with another week left on the demo loan we brought them over to my place and I ended up buying them. I tried the same things with the Abbys and the TBI and then decided that the Abbys had enough bass for me and that the sub was not worth the compromises to the presentation as a whole, and after a year or more of debating about it, I sold the TBI.

Then I bought a pair of Revolutions from Louis to use in my living room (main system) and then a few months ago bought a AV123 ULW-10 sub to augment the bottom end, then all hell broke loose... Along came one of those once in a lifetime deals that I just could not pass up and now there is a pair of Adagios in my living room and the Revolutions got moved to the office system, along with the AV123 sub, and the Abbys are up for sale.

I only hooked up the Revolutions for the first time the other day, and for one thing I know I'm not going to need this sub at all -- in fact you'll probably see it up on the trading post shortly. The other surprise is that The Revolutions may even be too much for this space -- only about 140 square feet, and with me only about 6 feet from the speakers. So now I'm also, and extremely reluctantly, considering selling them too (which I discussed with Louis just yesterday) and replacing them with a pair of XRS's. I'm going to do some more experiments with placement, tilt, etc, but right now with an 8 watt tube amp it is just overpowering the room.

Anyway, back to the original topic, that's my experience with subs, and after I sell this one, I don't see myself getting another anytime soon -- the Adagios certainly don't need them. So that's about all I feel qualified to answer, and why I even opened my mouth in the first place -- because I've tried this thing of integrating a fast sub with fast, articulate single-driver speakers, and to my ears I just didn't find the added bottom end worth the sonic compromises elsewhere. So, think of it as a tale of my experiences as opposed to a blanket recommendation -- your system should be what you want it to be.

-- Jim

cooch · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 08:40 pm »

Jim, thanks for the explanation....i'm going to take your advice and wait to see how the compact hemps sound alone...if need be, then only will i look into a sub...

songforyou, if i need a sub, i will probably go with the tbi 6.5's....you are running a pair...are you using the tbi amp also? if so, 1 amp to both subs in mono or are you running 2 amps with your 2 subs in stereo? have you trie any other subs besides the tbi?

thanks guys

jrebman · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 08:47 pm »

An update to that last post, and this may go down as the most stupid audio move ever.

First of all, it is now clear that the Revolutions aren't too much for this room -- and in fact right now they seemed pretty tipped up, and since the drivers have been out and about travelling internationally for the past month or so, and had sat idle for a month or so before that, and also were nowhere near fully broken in before they left, I'll give them some time to settle down before I consider using a BSC or similar. They are sounding really good though.

Ok, so what was all the room overload coming from? Well, since I didn't have a source in my office, and because I got impatient to hear the new drivers and my new amp I ran a horrible 20 foot twin RCA cable from the -10dB RCA outputs of my mixing board, which is connected to my computer through a DAL CardDeluxe using all balanced TRS cabling. I have a pair of Vergence M-00 powered monitors on my desk, which also have a matching sub which is buried in a corner under my built-in desk. In order to hear only the stereo, I just turned the monitors off. You see where this is going, right?

I haven't done any recording/mixing/mastering in a while now so haven't been using the board or monitors. Now, I thought I had disconnected the sub because I had sold it to a friend who has yet to come and pick it up, but I guess I didn't. So, the sub was still on (it has an auto-on feature) and because the signal was still coming out of the board andwith the monitors off I didn't pay much attention to that, only concentrating on what was going to the stereo.

So what was happening was that the sub, sitting under my desk in the only corner it could go in, and with my desk working like a giant bass horn (and probably way out of phase with the music signal coming out of the speakers, things just got all confused, room nodes excited, etc. and I concluded that the Revolutions were the problem. Ok, bonus points to the person who guesses why I sold the sub

.

So, disconnecting this whole mess and going upstairs and grabbing the CD player, I came down, hooked it up, and wow, now all is much better.

I know it's a stretch from the original, and I don't mean to hijack the thread, but it does serve as a lesson in bad sub integration. Of course this is not a typical situation because with the sub in the corner under a fairly low (typing height) and bolted to the walls on the end and back of the 7 foot long desk, it just makes for a huge bass horn.

Ok, I'm done now

-- Jim

sabes · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 11:14 pm »

does the poor sap that bought the sub from jim get to retain his anonymity?

just kidding, jim! i am actually experiencing some of the same issues as you and have not been using the sub as intended.

jrebman · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 11:20 pm »

Sabes,

Well at least I hope I didn't misrepresent it when I sold it to you. If it had a variable phase control I would have been much less likely to sell it. I still think it is a really good sub -- for the right system.

Lovin' the 70s though

.

-- Jim

sabes · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 11:23 pm »

not at all, jim - couldn't resist the jab! and those 70's...of course i thought i was all set until i had to read about your experience with the ee mm tube pre - now i won't rest until i've heard that config!

jrebman · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Apr 2007, 11:27 pm »

Sure seems like a lot of folks are getting interested in it. I hope I haven't oversold it, but it truly is a thing of beauty in my setup -- and a few others, both on AC and off seem to be saying the same thing, which is actually what pushed me over the edge.

Sorry, didn't mean to tempt you

.

-- Jim

Songforyou · « **Reply #12 on:** 29 Apr 2007, 03:20 am »

Hi Cooch,

I use the TBI amp and two subs (dual mono!?!). I started with one sub and added the second later. Having two subs improved the quality (not just the quantity) of the bass. I'm a little confused by comments in this thread about the subs collapsing the soundstage (I don't doubt the experience or mean to challenge the comments, but I am surprised by them). Subs in general almost always expand the soundstage, but they certainly can muck things up (and especially slow things down) if not dialed in or positioned properly.

I had a pair of Kinergetics subs (two front firing 8" woofers per side and a separate crossover/amp) that I used with my Spica TC-50s 'back in the day.' It was a well integrated, full range system that sounded wonderful. It's only drawback was dynamics. It went deep, but lacked punch (or PRAT, I guess). Part of this was the Spicas themselves, but I think part was due to the fact that I was crossing the Spicas over at 100Hz (using RCA out from pre to sub amp/crossover and then RCA out of sub amp to main amp).

I much prefer running main speakers full range and using additional speaker cables from the main amp to the sub amp (this is how REL does it and it works well with the TBI). This way you let your main speakers do as much bass as they can and you don't introduce another crossover. You just dial the sub up by ear to meet your mains. With the Super 3s I have the adjustable crossover set around 65Hz (I'm guessing because the markings on the TBI amp are only labelled 50-80-150). I also have the sub volume set very low. You know when you dial up too far because you can start to hear the sub. It sounds great for about 30 seconds and then it gets really annoying. The less your sub has to do, the better.

As an aside, I recently bought a pair of Spica TC-50s off ebay and popped them in my main system with the TBI. I had to turn the adjustable crossover to its lowest setting (50Hz) and I left the sub volume at the same setting. This setup was much more dynamic than I remember by Spica/Kinergetics combo to be.

Hope this helps!

cooch · « **Reply #13 on:** 29 Apr 2007, 12:15 pm »

thanks song4u.....1 last question.....wouldn't the tbi's sound even better than they already do if you ran another tbi amp, 1 for each sub? the subwoofer bass would then be in stereo instead of mono, correct? ....this would be the exact way the bass was recorded, in stereo....isn't that what we are looking for?

Songforyou · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Apr 2007, 02:10 pm »

Cooch,

I think it would, but it is not something I've tried. I remember reading something about bass being mono on many recordings. I do know that two subs is definitely a major improvement over one.

Call Jan at TBI. He will be able to tell you for sure.

Cheers!

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 May 2007, 09:28 pm »

Hi guys, I find this thread very interesting. I've read it a couple of times and Googled most products mentioned just to get a feel for features / price, etc.

I have a fairly new set of Compact Hemps. And while I am 100% in love with the dynamics, imaging and resolution, I still wish for more and deeper bass. My reference for subs is the Vandersteen 2W (now sold), but would prefer to move to something with variable crossover point (and maybe adjustable phase).

I'm currently in a rental home so will resist making changes until I hear how the Hemps perform in a new home now being built (small room -- where standing waves will be a problem -- I am also considering bass traps and other room treatments).

Bottom line: This is a very interesting thread and encourage others to contribute as you experiment with various subs.

Kent

rajacat · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 May 2007, 09:58 pm »

Kent,

I'm running my Hemp Bipoles with an ACI Titan 12" sealed sub which does have a variable crossover with a steep 24db/octave slope. It also has a continuously adjustable phase control. So far so good, although I haven't finished tweeking and I'm still working on room treatments. The Titan can go very low, easily rattle the windows and give a visceral feeling to the music aa.

Raj

Louis O · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 May 2007, 05:34 pm »

I have to try out the ACI. It sounds like it has all the right stuff especially the 4th order low pass which is very important.

It would be great to develop one, but getting the right plate amp made can cost a lot. getting drivers is not a problem.

thanks,
Louis

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 May 2007, 08:11 pm »

I just ordered the Force XL. I will get dual usage on both Compact Hemp and K1000 ear speakers. I've owned a Vandersteen 2W before, so this will be my second venture into subs. I like the adjustable crossover frequency and phase control. Also like the fact that I can eliminate the need to put a crossover in-line with the main drivers. Should be interesting aa

cooch · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 May 2007, 05:36 pm »

let me know how u like the force. i picked up 2 ml dynamos for 520 each. they are nice, but i definiteley need some bass eq in my room....don't know what my next move is.......i have 30 days refund plicy with Tweeter.....