Burson Audio Buffer

bprice2 · « **on:** 23 Apr 2007, 06:37 pm »

Yesterday I placed an order for a Burson Audio Buffer. I've been very interested in what I have read so far about this device and think that it could improve on my system. There's no way I truly understand what the buffer is doing...I just don't have enough background in electronics. However, much of what I've read makes sense to me. I believe impedance matching is a big thing in audio. The buffer in my mind's eye is kind of like a shoe horn in that it allows the current to more freely flow unimpeded from my source to my amp.

I became particularly interested in the buffer after having read about it on the Bolder Cables Circle. Yeah, Wayne will probably have his modded version in the next few months, but I couldn't wait.

Not sure why I'm telling you all this other than to maybe stir-up some responses from those of you who have experience with the Burson Audio Buffer...especially those of you who have similar systems as mine (see below).

Tweaker · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Apr 2007, 07:43 pm »

I'm looking forward to hearing how it works in your system. I have not tried the Burson but did try a Musical Fidelity tube buffer some time back. I ended up returning it as it really didn't do much in my system other then affect the treble balance a tiny bit. Decware makes a tube buffer called the ZBOX that I'm thinking about trying just to see if it will work as claims. Space Tech Labs also sells a vacuum tube buffer. And probably like you I'm not trying to use one of these boxes to fix anything but just to see if it will make an already good sounding system a bit better.
These type of "black boxes" usually are looked at with great skepticism and, as it is not generally felt they can do anything beneficial, be prepared for some generally negative comments about it. In my opinion, however, as long as you are able to return it for a refund there is no reason not to give it, or other like units, a shot.

bprice2 · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Apr 2007, 08:02 pm »

Quote from: Tweaker on 23 Apr 2007, 07:43 pm

I'm looking forward to hearing how it works in your system. I have not tried the Burson but did try a Musical Fidelity tube buffer some time back. I ended up returning it as it really didn't do much in my system other then affect the treble balance a tiny bit. Decware makes a tube buffer called the ZBOX that I'm thinking about trying just to see if it will work as claims. Space Tech Labs also sells a vacuum tube buffer. And probably like you I'm not trying to use one of these boxes to fix anything but just to see if it will make an already good sounding system a bit better.
These type of "black boxes" usually are looked at with great skepticism and, as it is not generally felt they can do anything beneficial, be prepared for some generally negative comments about it. In my opinion, however, as long as you are able to return it for a refund there is no reason not to give it, or other like units, a shot.

No doubt, I'm taking a chance. I'll let you know what I learn in a couple of weeks.

GHM · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Apr 2007, 10:54 pm »

Since you use a resistor based passive in the front of the Burson. I'm sure you'll notice the difference. I noticed the difference immediately when I used my integrates volume pot. Using a TVC however there wasn't a difference. I think the results will vary depending on what impedance load your source is up against. This unit doesn't roll off anything..it is very clean and precise on the top end. I was planning to order the new all discreet amplifier/ integrated by Burson. This seems like a very well made unit. Who knows maybe I'll pick one up in a few months.

Have fun!

Loftprojection · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 01:11 am »

Quote from: GHM on 23 Apr 2007, 10:54 pm

Since you use a resistor based passive in the front of the Burson. I'm sure you'll notice the difference. I noticed the difference immediately when I used my integrates volume pot. Using a TVC however there wasn't a difference. I think the results will vary depending on what impedance load your source is up against. This unit doesn't roll off anything..it is very clean and precise on the top end. I was planning to order the new all discreet amplifier/ integrated by Burson. This seems like a very well made unit. Who knows maybe I'll pick one up in a few months.

Have fun!

Hum, wow, got to admit their integrated is

! You should definitely pick one up and let us know how it sounds!

GHM · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 02:13 am »

Quote from: Loftprojection on 24 Apr 2007, 01:11 am

Quote from: GHM on 23 Apr 2007, 10:54 pm
Since you use a resistor based passive in the front of the Burson. I'm sure you'll notice the difference. I noticed the difference immediately when I used my integrates volume pot. Using a TVC however there wasn't a difference. I think the results will vary depending on what impedance load your source is up against. This unit doesn't roll off anything..it is very clean and precise on the top end. I was planning to order the new all discreet amplifier/ integrated by Burson. This seems like a very well made unit. Who knows maybe I'll pick one up in a few months.

Have fun!

Hum, wow, got to admit their integrated is ! You should definitely pick one up and let us know how it sounds!

I almost pull the trigger two weeks ago. I need to unload some unused gear first. Then the Burson PI -100 can come to Papa!

bprice2 · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 May 2007, 02:50 pm »

I received the Burson Buffer a few days ago and have it in the system. I have noticed a change for the better. The device adds some good stuff...extended bass, and an overall sense of added dimension. I am still in the evaluating phase, but have made the decision that the little black box will stay in my system.

The Burson website says that the buffer uses ELNA caps. However, the one I received contained Sanyo caps. I had been forwarned by an individual here on AC that this might happen. I was also told that these caps have been reported to produce brightness. Brightness was actually one of the things I was wanting to cure in my system. I don't feel like the buffer is producing much additional brightness, but its definitely there on certain tracks.

With all that being said, here's my question: Do the Sanyo caps have a significant burn-in period? Can I expect them to mellow out some in regard to the brightness issue, or is that just the nature of the Sanyos?

If anyone has experience with the Sanyo caps, I would most certainly appreciate your insight.

rollo · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 May 2007, 12:10 am »

Had the buffer and used with Music First TVC, Music First was better alone. Bought it to use with phono to get more gain into system. Thought it was HiFi sounding. Bright and thin. Didn't hit me in the soul. Sorry man, just my opinion. hope your experience is different. Did you consider the Promitheus buffer [ preamp when used with TVC ]. It has 6db of gain as standard but can be had with gain as required for your needs. It uses 6N1P input tubes with balanced trannies for output. The separate power supply uses either a 5Y3 or 5AR tube. It sells for $500 plus shipping.
I bought one to use with TVC, but it can be used as buffer for CDP. The sonics are all I can ask for. It uses Holy Grail Aerovox [ power supply bypass ] and Phillips caps [ input ] with carbon resistors. Point to point wiring. The internal wiring is 4N silver. The power supply uses one cap and a trannie to heat tube.

Good luck

rollo

P.S. If you want to get rid of brightness try Mundorf silver/gold caps. Expensive but worth it IMO. This cap is laid back and very natural on top. It is not bright sounding. Caps require a long break in of 200 Hrs. The Mundorfs especially critical to break in. Maybe longer, say 300 Hrs. Hang in there . My comments were based on a unit that was fully broken in for 400 Hrs.

PaulHilgeman · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 May 2007, 01:18 am »

Where are the Sanyo's used in the circuit? More preceisly, do you see two big cans per buffer closer to the power supply, or a single cap near the output of the buffer?

-Paul

bprice2 · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 May 2007, 04:16 pm »

Quote

Thought it was HiFi sounding. Bright and thin. Didn't hit me in the soul. Sorry man, just my opinion.

No worries and no offense taken. Opinions are what I'm looking for.

Quote

Did you consider the Promitheus buffer [ preamp when used with TVC ].

No, but I will take a look at it. Does Promitheus allow for returns?

Quote

P.S. If you want to get rid of brightness try Mundorf silver/gold caps. Expensive but worth it IMO.

Thanks for the advice. I'll look into the Mundorfs.

Quote

Where are the Sanyo's used in the circuit? More precisely, do you see two big cans per buffer closer to the power supply, or a single cap near the output of the buffer?

I see the two big cans on each buffer near the PS.

I did some critical listening yesterday with the buffer in and the buffer out...with the buffer through a switch box and with the buffer straight to the amp. I also listened with different combinations of IC's that I own. Now I am uncertain that the buffer is doing anything at all other than adding gain.

Maybe I should allow more burn-in time before I make any judgements. I did think I heard a difference for the better when I first placed the buffer in the chain. Now I'm not so sure.

bprice2 · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 May 2007, 10:45 pm »

I've had time to better evaluate the Burson Buffer in my system. I have also had the chance to evaluate a Burson Buffer that belongs to Wayne at Bolder Cables. The difference between Wayne's buffer and mine is the caps on the buffer boards. Wayne's has Elna caps and mine has Sanyos.

I compared Wayne's buffer against mine and then I compared my buffer in the system against no buffer at all. Here are my findings.

Buffer v. Buffer - I can honestly tell no difference between the two. Wayne wanted me to compare the two because some other costumers of his claimed the buffer with Sanyo caps sounded "brighter and more forward." They both sound the same to me.

Buffer v. No Buffer - This is a tough one. I think I heard more air and a little more soundstage and imaging with the buffer in my system. However, the difference was so slight that I could be wrong. I did not hear the extended bass I thought I'd heard in the beginning.

Bottom Line - I can't tell that the Burson Buffer is adding much in the sonics department. The Burson Buffer does add plenty of gain, if you need it. To my ear it is invisible in my system. So, if you need gain and are afraid of adding anything in the circuit that might get in the way, do not fear the Burson Buffer. It is virtually invisible...at least in my system.

Note: I do hope to get a chance to compare Wayne's modded buffer against mine when it becomes available. This excercise has actually been fun.

Tweaker · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 May 2007, 10:59 pm »

Maybe the fact you can't tell much if any difference is a good thing. Your impedance match between the gear you're inserting it between must be pretty ideal.

bprice2 · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 May 2007, 11:44 pm »

Quote from: Tweaker on 20 May 2007, 10:59 pm

Maybe the fact you can't tell much if any difference is a good thing. Your impedance match between the gear you're inserting it between must be pretty ideal.

I had that thought too. Good point.

bprice2 · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jul 2007, 12:42 am »

UPDATE

My previous notes on my experience with the two Burson Buffers - one with ELNA caps and the other with Sanyo caps (the one I own) - entailed the placement of the buffer between the Bolder modded SB3 and the Red Wine Audio Signature 30. While this is my preferred setup for serious listening, it is not the typical setup. Typically, the SB3, a TV, VCR and a Sansui TU-717 AM/FM tuner are plugged into a Mapletree LR-1 line router, which in turn is plugged into the buffer and then to the amp.

I purchased the TU-717 because it is supposed to be a great performing old FM tuner and ideal for modding. It has sat in the system for close to a year, unmodded and hardly ever listened to while in the sweet spot. It has done duty mostly in the mornings with NPR. When I first purchased the tuner and listened to it in the sweet spot, I thought it sounded a little harsh and difficult to listen to for any length of time.

I noticed something yesterday as my wife and I were tidying up the house for guests and had the tuner playing. I sat down on the couch (sweet spot) and very pretty music was coming out of my speakers. There was more of everything...bass, tone, clarity, and especially imaging and soundstage. I'm sure there are some adjectives I'm missing. The point is that the TU-717 sounds fantastic now that the buffer is in its path! aa

Luigi · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Jul 2007, 02:45 am »

Just received mine at work today! Looking forward to fiddling 2 night. With it. The Burson.

Luigi · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Jul 2007, 10:53 pm »

Holy hole in a donut Batman. What a staggering improvement the Burson buffer makes, at least in my system. I’m still grinning, and it's the next day. On a scale of 1-10 for audibly noticeable difference this rates 9.5.

Clearly, there were impedance issues with my CD player which is an Ah Tjoeb CD4000 unit with upsampler; its output impedance is rated at 250ohms or so.

Initially, the presentation is a touch hard at present, but Im figuring that it will settled down as it runs in, and the rest is all good.

Dynamics and body are much improved, though I guess you'd expect the former with 6dB of gain. Instrument tonality is richer.

The imaging is startlingly more palpable, staging better delineated, instruments better outlined. Bass is cleaner and stronger too. With the extra gain the whole system seems turbocharged. Buffed, if you like! The top end is slightly more in my face at present, but seems to be settling with time.

As a point of comparison I have been trying out some new gold and silver interconnects, and the effect of the Burson buffer easily eclipses the wire, though they have been relatively impressive too.

Some reviews said subtle effects in some systems, and better effects of the Burson in others. Guess mine's one of the latter.

Might have to think about incorporating the modules into the player somehow, and get rid of another pair of interconnects. Could potentially make the Burson pay for itself! Heh heh.

richidoo · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Jul 2007, 01:37 am »

bprice, Luigi
Nice thread here. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I too use SB3 and TU-717, straight into my Manley Snappers. Snappers have a very high 450kohm inputZ, which makes easy load for both sources. But the tuner is 600 ohm output impedance, compared to the 220ohms of SB. If your amp input impedance is relatively low (solid state amps?) then maybe the load presented by the amp did affect the tuner more than the SB due to its higher output impedance. Also be sure you have short run of low capacitance IC wire. It takes current to charge that capacitance which softens bass and creates a EQ filter. The longer it is the worse the total capacitance of the wire. It might be pretty long with the switch box in there and a couple lengths of IC. Resistance also acts as part of filter with capacitance and resistance is audible and obviously affects impedance, but with any kind of copper is it is usually fine.

The buffer supplies the current needed to drive a lower impedance amplifier input stage, and also to power through squirrelly wires. Resistance and capacitance of ICs in a passive setup should be as low as possible. Grover Huffman wires and Anticable are both very low, and not too expensive.

Ken Bernacke at Stereo Surgeons did my TU-717 and it came out awesome. I got it on EBay and it played, but not great. He cleaned and aligned the tuner, pots, replaced the lightbulbs, installed feet, and upgraded signal caps to black gate. Very good value. Good service but slow turnaround, QC is very imprtant to him. It ran in on his test bench for several weeks while I pulled my hair out. It was worth the wait. I would go to him again. Stereo Surgeons. Dan Banquer used him to align his hot rod tuner project written up on some forum, Audioholics? Ken is great for tuners.

Also found this guy Joseph Chow, who owns Audio Horizons. He wrote to me, "We are working on tube buffer inclue power transformers/power supply and buffer PCBs to instal on rear inside panel, available very soon, this will give a fine texture and more analog sounding most SS tuner does not have, or we call it poorman 10B." Audio Horizons.
Happy listening!

Rich

Hogg · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 12:55 am »

I have the Burson buffer. It works great with the Burson integrated amp, lowering the noise floor and improving the tone a little. I did not work with the active linestage in my YBA integrated. I'm not "techy" enough to understand what went wrong but there was a horrible screeching sound on loud passages with the YBA.

Jim

bprice2 · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 09:04 pm »

Hi Rich,

Thanks for your input. You are obviously leagues ahead of me in understanding this stuff. So, let me ask you...do you think a 20K Ohm input impedance on my amp would make an audible difference between the 600 Ohm and the 220 Ohm output impedance of the tuner and SB? 20K is quite a bit of difference from your 450K.

Also, you reminded me that IC lengths do make a difference. I do remove the switcher from the chain and use the buffer and SB connected straight to the amp when I do serious listening. In these situations I am using .5M Bolder M80 IC's. I'd be interested to know...do you have an opinion on the lengths and type of IC's I'm using?

Thanks for sharing in regards to your tuner mods. That will become very usefull when I scrape up enough green.

Once again, thanks for your input. AC is such a rich receptacle for info. Its even more usefull when folks such as yourself can comment directly on one's particular situation.

Salud,

Brett

richidoo · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 10:45 pm »

Hi Brett,
Your 20k input impedance is plenty high enough to not affect your frequency range due to impedance compatibility between your sources and amp. Technically there is a difference between 220 and 600, which is more of an issue with lower input impedance than high, I don't know if the degree is significant enough to even think about. General rule of thumb in audio freq range is inputZ should be 10x higher than outputZ, and you have that covered by several times over. But as long as the source's output can provide enough current into the load and cable then there is no problem. The input impedance of professional recording studio equipment is often 600 ohms. The low freqs come through just fine, but the output stages of mic preamps and pro tape recorders are honkin.

The Sansui has an old school, kick ass output stage that easily drives my amps to full power when the pot is only turned up to 4. It was designed in the height of the solid state era 1978, and I think Sansui amps were all solid state, so you have to assume they designed the radio to play into 10-20k input impedance and gave it all the power it needs.

You also have to make sure you have enough drive to "power" your ICs. The more capacitance, the more current they need to "charge". I don't know anything about Bolder wires, but from reading their site again yesterday about SB mods it seems like they have some great stuff. I'm sure somebody here knows the capacitance of those wires, or you can ask Wayne, it is a standard wire spec. IC lengths only make a difference in relation to the capacitance (or resistance) per foot. A total capacitance over 100pF is gonna start to challenge opamp-based output stages on consumer level equipment like squeezebox and <$500 CD players. On the other hand, when there is enough current to drive a higher cable capacitance as with a dedicated preamp, that capacitance of braided insulated conductors can be used to create enjoyable tuning effects on the system. Transparent Cables actually puts lots of capacitors in their super top dog speaker cables. The ones I heard (with Ref 3) were unbelievable. Your taste and philosophy (and budget) will determine which way to go, but you just need enough power to make those exotic cable designs fly. The Ref 3 preamp, for instance, has a power supply larger than most mid tier power amps and has 30V+ outputV. It is a bulldozer, but sounds like a magic carpet. Only $10k hehe

I'm no scientist, this is just how I understand it. Please excuse if there are some deviations from the textbook in my understanding.
Rich