[sturgus]

Intresting read about the sound of capacitors.
Sturgus

http://www.edn.com/article/CA6430345.html?q=capacitor

[Daryl]

You are speaking of something entirely different than that article.

Basicly most low level consumer gear is incompetently designed for no reason.

Loudspeakers and power amplifiers are something that you must throw money at and plan well to achieve top notch performance.

However low level circuits where everything can be class A can be built for flawless performance without spending a lot of money.

Not too much anyway, I would recommend manufacturers spring for quality DAC's, ADC's and OP-AMP's for buffering outputs and differential inputs.

The garbage mentioned in that article is just rediculous (as well as being the norm) if an "engineer" doesn't know better than to make foolish mistakes like those mentioned in the article they should step down and pick out a broom or mop or something they could use that allows them to contribute something.

What that article is talking about is basic common sense and there should be no reason for it.

How carelessly so many things are designed is a real issue though.

[slbender]

OK, all that means is PC audio has always been crap, and remains crap due to inferior surface mount components.  Second, any idiot knows ceramic caps of any sort should not be used in the signal path, but since a single high quality teflon cap is physically bigger then an PCI Audio Card (or two) and costs more than a whole PCI Audio Card there is little likelihood of such quality caps being used in PC Audio Cards and applications.

Consumer audio gear is not is incompetently designed for no reason, it is simply made to an ever decreasing price point, and more is spent on the front panel and knobs than on the stuff inside, hence more plastic, less metal, and crappier caps and parts.

Would women buy tampons if they looked all like the insides of a tree ( which is pretty much what it is made of basically ) ?  Probably not, so they do the same thing there also, that they do to sell cheap consumer audio equipment - they make it look nice on the outside.

If you want quality audio, then you have to have good parts, which costs on average ten times as much to make, so some damned ugly sets sound far better because of proper design, and quality parts, and making them pretty triples the price again, so you really better get a much bigger wallet before telling manufacturers what to use inside their stuff....


-Steven L. Bender

Basicly most low level consumer gear is incompetently designed for no reason.

Loudspeakers and power amplifiers are something that you must throw money at and plan well to achieve top notch performance.

However low level circuits where everything can be class A can be built for flawless performance without spending a lot of money.

Not too much anyway, I would recommend manufacturers spring for quality DAC's, ADC's and OP-AMP's for buffering outputs and differential inputs.

The garbage mentioned in that article is just rediculous (as well as being the norm) if an "engineer" doesn't know better than to make foolish mistakes like those mentioned in the article they should step down and pick out a broom or mop or something they could use that allows them to contribute something.

What that article is talking about is basic common sense and there should be no reason for it.

How carelessly so many things are designed is a real issue though.

[Daryl]

Well Steven we mostly agree.

I don't have any use for teflon capacitors unless maybe I'm working with radios or sample and hold circuits.

Polypropylene capacitors are about as perfect as you could expect a componet to be for audio.

However where space and cost are of concern aluminum electrolytics are a good choice.

Their distortion is a little high for electronic componets (fine for speakers).

However since we are talking about coupling and not filters within the audio band you can simply use a very large value and swamp their distortion.

Where some might spec a 1uf chip cap which yeild a 16hz corner frequency with a 10kohm load a 47uf aluminum electrolytic will be cheaper and offer vastly improved performance with a reasonable 5mm footprint (vs. 4.6mm x 3.2mm for an 1812 ceramic chip) and exceptional 0.33hz corner frequency.

For starters the aluminum electrolytic has much lower distortion.

Then since the electrolytic has a value 47 times greater it's distortion will be many times lower still since voltage swing is the primary cause of distortion and the voltage will be swinging 47 times less.

Now take the much better linearity of the electrolytic and the fact that it's voltage swing is 47 times less and then divide it's distortion by another 47 times since the electrolytics influence over the circuit will be 47 times less than the 1uf ceramic.

You could go smaller if you wanted.

The cost of proper mechanical design is likely reasonable too so you are not picking up unneccessary noise.

Differential inputs?

Maybe foregoing a couple Jackass features for an upgrade in DAC's, ADC's and Op-Amps or maybe a few more dollars on the price tag with the qualifier "we didn't screw-up this time".

[Double Ugly]

I don't have any use for teflon capacitors unless maybe I'm working with radios or sample and hold circuits.

Polypropylene capacitors are about as perfect as you could expect a componet to be for audio.

Have you heard Teflon caps in an audio component?  Maybe the Sonicap Platinum?

[Daryl]

I don't have any use for teflon capacitors unless maybe I'm working with radios or sample and hold circuits.

Polypropylene capacitors are about as perfect as you could expect a componet to be for audio.

Have you heard Teflon caps in an audio component?  Maybe the Sonicap Platinum?

Hi Double Ugly,

No I have not heard teflon capacitors in an audio system.

I have cooked in teflon lined pans and had the entire family vote on the dinner.

The consensus was that it tasted better when cooked in the teflon pans.

Seriously though what sells boutique capacitors is that consumers don't understand how dominant the placebo effect is or how easy it is to quantize the transfer function of a componet such as a film capacitor and show it to be flawless for all practical purposes.

They can simply sell you these things without any reason why they are any better.

With sample and hold circuits and radio frequency circuits issues like Q and dielectric absorbtion become important and other types of capacitors offer improved performance for a particular application.

Sometimes due to the physical size of some boutique capacitors you can end up with reduced performance because inductance might be higher or the thing might just be a bigger antenna for noise.

[Dan Banquer]

When one is contemplating which cap to use in a loudspeaker application there are a number of specifications that one should be aware of such as ESR, ( equivalent series resistance) Dissipation Factor, Leakage, Voltage, and I probably forgot a spec or two. If Teflon is a superior material, then it should show up in the above testing.
           d.b.

[Scott F.]

Hey Mr Moderator (Occam),

Can we just send this thread to the IGW or Fight Club? This is going to turn out like any other battle regarding objectivism and subjectivism. 

Maybe I can speed your decision along a bit......


Daryl an you other people that live and die by theory,
Unless you are willing to actually LISTEN rather than regurgitating theory that we ALL know, maybe you shouldn't contribute to threads like this. In fact, I'd like to suggest a ban on ALL posters who summarily dismiss the viability of ANYTHING that don't have FIRST HAND, REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE with the item(s) being discussed. That sure would eliminate the udder stupidity that is going to take place in the rest of this thread.

Did you really just condone the use of aluminum electrolytics as coupling caps in audio gear
Have you lost your mind or have you been deaf from birth? .....good grief......

[ctviggen]

It's too bad, too, because it would be interesting to discuss why teflon caps might or might not be better than other caps for certain applications.  Unfortunately, if it's not in an equation, Daryl isn't going to believe in it. 

[Occam]

Mr. Moderator responds.....

Oh dear! Much potential for nekk'd mud rassl'n. 

[Dan Banquer]

Hey Mr Moderator (Occam),

Can we just send this thread to the IGW or Fight Club? This is going to turn out like any other battle regarding objectivism and subjectivism. 

Maybe I can speed your decision along a bit......


Daryl an you other people that live and die by theory,
Unless you are willing to actually LISTEN rather than regurgitating theory that we ALL know, maybe you shouldn't contribute to threads like this. In fact, I'd like to suggest a ban on ALL posters who summarily dismiss the viability of ANYTHING that don't have FIRST HAND, REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE with the item(s) being discussed. That sure would eliminate the udder stupidity that is going to take place in the rest of this thread.

Did you really just condone the use of aluminum electrolytics as coupling caps in audio gear
Have you lost your mind or have you been deaf from birth? .....good grief......

Well instead of mud wrestling Scott maybe you could enlighten this topic and google Teflon capacitors and give a spec comparison?
Yes I do prefer film caps in the signal path, for a whole lot of reasons, which include things like ESR, series inductance, low dc leakage, etc.etc. But if I have to use a lot of capacitance with limited space I have used polarized electrolytics and bipolar electrolytics bypassed with 1 uf and 0.1uf films that have better performance than one might expect.

  d.b.

[Daryl]

Hey Mr Moderator (Occam),

Can we just send this thread to the IGW or Fight Club? This is going to turn out like any other battle regarding objectivism and subjectivism. 

Maybe I can speed your decision along a bit......


Daryl an you other people that live and die by theory,
Unless you are willing to actually LISTEN rather than regurgitating theory that we ALL know, maybe you shouldn't contribute to threads like this. In fact, I'd like to suggest a ban on ALL posters who summarily dismiss the viability of ANYTHING that don't have FIRST HAND, REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE with the item(s) being discussed. That sure would eliminate the udder stupidity that is going to take place in the rest of this thread.

Well Scott,

I'm reading your post and looking at your avatar.....

"Regurgitating theory that we all know."

Mr. F. you stand before a mountain you haven't begun to climb yet you somehow feel you are qualified to comment.

I know about the placebo effect.

I learned about the Salem witch trials in school and I now see you on the stand giving your testimony.

Do you really think it out of place if I don't believe you unless you have quantifiable reasoning?

[Bob in St. Louis]

Too bad the Fight Club is closed

 

[Daryl]

Why is fight club closed?

[Bob in St. Louis]

I believe it was found to be useless, and/or promoted confrontations.
The last thread was the last straw (glad I was part of it  )

Bob

p.s. Feel free to "revive" the Fight Club right here and now though! 

[rajacat]

Daryl,

I agree with Scott F. I really don't  believe that you can comment intelligently on the sound quality characteristics of Teflon capacitors unless you have at least listened to them in an audio application or run some ABX tests using quality gear. You're like a virgin sex councilor.

Raj

[Dan Banquer]

I just googled Teflon capacitor and found this National Semiconductor article from Bob Pease, who is generally worth reading.
http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,4,00.html
enjoy;
       d.b.

[Dan Banquer]

I have just given a quick review from the Solen website of the differences between Metalized Teflon Caps and  Metalized Polypropylene Caps and I am not seeing much difference in the specifications that apply to loudspeakers. Please feel free to review both of these links and correct me if I am mistaken.

http://www.solen.ca/caps/mkp.htm

http://www.solen.ca/caps/fep.htm

            d.b.

[robert1325]

My bolder SB has teflon caps I think 

I replaced the caps of my trends ta-10 t-amp ,  they where Bennic XPP input caps.  now, I'm using Obbligato premium oil caps and they do sound much better ( richer, liquid , more detail/depth) 

Bennic's

http://www.cadaudio.dk/cxcomponents.htm

[bpape]

... and I'm sure those oil caps will measure a lot worse than the teflons or the other films so they can't be any good - have you no ears? 

Pretty amazing that I hear the same changes in my preamp with oilers as the output caps as you do.  I wonder how we explain that away as placebo effect.  Do we all react to the placebo the same way 

Bryan