Synergy, is it measurable?

BubbleChamber · « **on:** 10 Apr 2007, 06:00 am »

Heard a lot about system synergy among components: source, pre, amp, cables, speakers etc. What exactly does it mean? Is it measurable by comparing output characteristics to input of the downstream components? Or is it entirely subjective?

TONEPUB · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 08:51 am »

Everything either works well or it doesn't...

Only you can be the judge!

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 11:29 am »

I think so, but the technical explanation would be long and complex, so many of you will be better off not thinking about it. For those who may wish to start thinking about it, please feel free to do a search in the Lab Forum for the following: Grounding practices in consumer audio, stereo separationand & noise immunity, and the Gedlees distortion paper. Those will get you started.
d.b.

boead · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 12:12 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer on 10 Apr 2007, 11:29 am

I think so, but the technical explanation would be long and complex...

Really, can you measure contentment too? What does that look like on a scope?

long and complex? I’ve got plenty of time.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 12:27 pm »

My post is intended for the technical/engineering area only. If you wish to further explore other areas you are welcome to do so without me.
d.b.

sts9fan · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 01:13 pm »

Quote

Everything either works well or it doesn't...

Only you can be the judge!

Right but if it dosen't you should be able to figure out why. I have an issue of synergy and I have narrowed it down to the fact that I have WAY too much gain.

rajacat · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 01:44 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer on 10 Apr 2007, 12:27 pm

My post is intended for the technical/engineering area only. If you wish to further explore other areas you are welcome to do so without me.
d.b.

You just can't bring yourself to admit that engineering tools to fully explain audio phenomena don't exist yet. Don't worry, maybe in the next century or two the state of the art will advance enough to explain how all of the parts of a well balanced audio system work together to satisfy the listener.

Raj

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 01:51 pm »

Quote from: rajacat on 10 Apr 2007, 01:44 pm

Quote from: Dan Banquer on 10 Apr 2007, 12:27 pm
My post is intended for the technical/engineering area only. If you wish to further explore other areas you are welcome to do so without me.
d.b.

You just can't bring yourself to admit that engineering tools to fully explain audio phenomena don't exist yet. Don't worry, maybe in the next century or two the state of the art will advance enough to explain how all of the parts of a well balanced audio system work together to satisfy the listener.

Raj

As for myself, the engineering tools, theory, and application have worked just fine. I'm a happy guy.
d.b.

JohnR · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 02:37 pm »

Yah, I'm with Dan. I have my synergo-meter right here in fact, and it's off the scale! Thank God for Engineering Education and the Righteous Way.

eric the red · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 02:48 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 10 Apr 2007, 02:37 pm

Yah, I'm with Dan. I have my synergo-meter right here in fact, and it's off the scale! Thank God for Engineering Education and the Righteous Way.

I've got one too John. Looks kind of like this

I also have my scent taste and beauty meters somewhere around here...

JohnR · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 02:52 pm »

miklorsmith · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 03:17 pm »

If synergy is predictable and measurable, Synergetics Consulting is a big-time business waiting to happen. Software should be smart enough to do it. Imagine being able to run CDP "a", preamp "b", amplifier "c", and speakers "d" through an intelligent program that would give a "pass/fail" or scoring grade to certain combinations. The program could be sold to any PC or Mac users or The Great Knowledge could be held in a proprietary vault, to be consulted only by the proprietor on a fee basis.

Maybe cables and tweaks could be taken into account and maybe not, it would depend on the programmer.

Build a better mousetrap, catch lots of mice, the beauty of the free market!

p.s. I'd pay $$bucks$$ if somebody would do this.

JoshK · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 03:25 pm »

I think there are aspects that are and are not measureable. I think Dan has covered a lot of the part that is. The other part may be measureable somehow, but that doesn't mean we are interpreting the data correctly or we have the right measurements.

I kinda think (postulation without much empirical evidence to back up) that distortion spectra and interaction with other component's spectra has a lot to do with synergy. If two individual components have low distortion, but measureable amounts of some higher order products, what happens to the resulting sum spectra when the two are added together and interact? Are they still low? What happens to other orders?

Daryl · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 03:33 pm »

In general when you when you hear the term 'Synergy' you can assume someone is playing with their self.

This should be obvious from the context.

Each of your componets should be designed for the most accurate signal reproduction possible and be able to maintain it when connected to a range of input impedances.

Thereby any componet connected to any other results in accurate signal reproduction.

Synergy really does exist however once audiophools allow themselves to be misdirected from common sense and lured into the realm of mystique.

Then technical details become unimportant (who understands them any way) and are replaced by meaningless B.S. and improper spelling of words which add to the mystique.

Now you are in the realm of tube amplifiers with output impedances of several ohms, passive preamps with output impedances of several killiohms, phonographs with extreme distortion levels, poor S/N ratio, frequency response and not only play the intended groove but play the adjacent grooves as well (the "lost" ambience you lose on CD's...for those with common sense it's called groove echo).

Now you have poor performing equipment costing many times what quality equipment would cost and each componet alters the signal considerably and not always the same way since you are at the mercy of the input imedance transfer function of the next componet which will have great influence over the preceding componets transfer function (especially loudspeakers).

Once you have such a mess Synergy truly is an issue because you never know what the final transfer function will be with the transfer characteristics of each componet being a grabbag.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 03:36 pm »

Spoken like a guy in need of a clue.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 03:47 pm »

You mean he made all that stuff up?

Cheers

miklorsmith · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 03:56 pm »

Made up what, the facts presented? I didn't see any.

I saw selective and half-assed misrepresentation and condescension. The post started saying "when you hear the term 'Synergy' you can assume someone is playing with their self." [sic]

eric the red · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 03:58 pm »

Topic: Synergy, is it measureable?
No. And neither is the smell of a fart. Not everything is measureable. End of discussion.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 04:01 pm »

Quote

I saw selective and half-assed misrepresentation and condescension.

That's what I'm asking. Do you think he just made that up, condescension aside, or is there truth to be found in what he is saying.

I don't think he's talking pure gibberish there. He touched on a lot of technical issues as pertaining to the topic.

Cheers

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Apr 2007, 04:05 pm »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 10 Apr 2007, 04:01 pm

Quote
I saw selective and half-assed misrepresentation and condescension.

That's what I'm asking. Do you think he just made that up, condescension aside, or is there truth to be found in what he is saying.

I don't think he's talking pure gibberish there. He touched on a lot of technical issues as pertaining to the topic.

Cheers

Yes he did touch on many technical issues pertaining to this topic, and I would like to suggest that possibly the technical side of this discussion be moved to the Lab forum, and leave the rest of this discussion here in Audio Central.
d.b.