Weak bottom end: cartridge or tt or phono stage or ??

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #20 on:** 28 Jul 2003, 07:29 pm »

An interesting link??

Found this review/article on StereoTimes.
http://www.stereotimes.com/acc072402.shtm
It's actually about a Garrott Bros. retip of a Blue Point Special, but there are some other tidbits of info. I found the description of the cart's tendency to "shriek" interesting---certainly that doesn't match Jonathan's complaint about lifelessness (not that shrieking is a good audio quality, but it's definitely not lifeless). StereoTimes DOES mention lightweight bass
"Though very reasonably priced at $295 originally, the low price encouraged many with cheap and poor arms to buy it. Even the best of affordable arms, the Rega RB300, had problems taming its tendency to go bright and shriek. Somewhat lightweight and dynamically constricted bass registers and inability to descend deep into subterranean regions tended to exaggerate its brightness and kept it from total satisfaction in music making."

michael w · « **Reply #21 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 01:33 am »

Bear in mind the BP Special and BP are quite different cartridges.

The original Blue Point used a modified P-mount.
The latest BP has done away with that awfulness and uses a conventional mounting.

Which version do you have Jonathan ?

The original did have lightweight bass but definitely not the Special provided it was used in a suitable arm, one that preferably allowed for full adjustability including damping. Most budget arms do not. The Rega mentioned does even allow for basic azimuth or VTA adjustment.

Unfortunately such adjustable arms are normally beyond the BPS' price point but the fact that it performed much better in higher quality arms makes a mockery of all those who loudly shout the cartridge is the most important piece of the vinyl playback chain.

When reviewed properly (by the likes of Secretary of Defense Anthony Cordesman, Myles Astor, Frank Doris, even Corey Greenberg ! ) the BPS was found to have very good bass and an exceptional combination of neutrality and musical information.

cheerio

Jonathan · « **Reply #22 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 08:18 pm »

Quote from: michael w

Bear in mind the BP Special and BP are quite different cartridges.

The original Blue Point used a modified P-mount.
The latest BP has done away with that awfulness and uses a conventional mounting.

Which version do you have Jonathan ?

Michael, I have the new version of the BP. I should add that I also owned the Blue Point Special a long time ago. It was mounted to an old AR EB-101, and it sounded quite nice. Unfortunately, it and the 'table were wrecked in a shipping fiasco and I failed to put enough insurance on it to be able to replace it with comparable stuff (ah, the mistakes of our youth...). That's how I ended up with my current setup.

In any case, this all gets back to my original question, which was what is the main reason for the 'relative' lack of bottom end (at least compared to the digital sources)? Again, it's only a $100 phono card, so that may be part of the problem, too.

I did find that one of the local retailers over here, Play it again Sam, will do a complete 'tuneup' of the rig for $45. It may be worth it to take it in and be sure all is set up properly before I decide what to do with it. More as more develops, I guess.

Jon

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #23 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 08:29 pm »

Wonder if Play it Again has some more expensive phono stages that you could try out to see how the Unico phono stacks up??

Jonathan · « **Reply #24 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 09:22 pm »

Quote from: Tonto Yoder

Wonder if Play it Again has some more expensive phono stages that you could try out to see how the Unico phono stacks up??

I guessing yes, but when I asked the guy on the phone if there would be some way I could compare the sound of my turntable to another one in the place, he said something like, "Well there's usually no room to set up another turntable except maybe on a speaker, and we don't want to do that..."

He suggested that if there's another one on the bench we could listen to mine and that one through their bench gear: "A cheap integrated and some crappy two-ways." That's exactly the opposite of what I was hoping he'd say, and another reason I hesitate to bring it to them at all.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #25 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 10:29 pm »

Jonathan,
when I was at Sam, they were very accomodating; sounds like things have changed. It would seem that they would gladly show you how much better their lovingly-tweaked Linn LP12 stomps your NAD or how their Vendetta phono stage would be a clear upgrade.

With the simplicity of the NAD/Rega, I'm not sure what they could adjust to make it sound $45 better: it's not like they can tweak the VTA and suspension. I'm not sure what I would do in your situation.

Jonathan · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 11:32 pm »

Quote from: Tonto Yoder

Jonathan,
It would seem that they would gladly show you how much better their lovingly-tweaked Linn LP12 stomps your NAD or how their Vendetta phono stage would be a clear upgrade.

Exactly my thought, too. I would think they'd see this as an opportunity to sell me something new. Oh well, maybe I'll bring it over there and see if I can catch someone in an accomodating mood.

I'll report back as things progress.

Jon

michael w · « **Reply #27 on:** 30 Jul 2003, 12:37 am »

Quote

...this all gets back to my original question, which was what is the main reason for the 'relative' lack of bottom end (at least compared to the digital sources)? Again, it's only a $100 phono card, so that may be part of the problem, too.

Assuming all is well with your table and it's setup, bottom end performance is a weak area with most tables, cheap and expensive alike.
This is an area where good digital excels.

Is your NAD placed on any isolation device ?
They can help immensely and need not be expensive to implement.
eg. cones, stone or wooden slabs, squash balls, inner tubes etc.

cheerio

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #28 on:** 31 Jul 2003, 03:28 am »

Quote from: Jonathan

The setup for the 533 'table is pretty basic and straighforward: turn the counterweight so the arm is floating, and then dial the weight forward one full turn per gram. Set the anti skate to the same number, and off you go.

I know there is not an adjustment to change the VTA, so I'm not sure what good it's going to do me if it turns out to be set wrong (and is there any way to check the VTA)? Also, does anyone know of a good turntable guru in the NE Ohio area? Maybe I could take it in and have it looked at. Thanks,

Jon

VTA adjustment is basic and straightforward. Your TT is not up to speed. Your tonearm should be parallel to the record surface, for a start.

Now, I did own a BluePoint and it is not a really good tracker. Bass response will be affected by that as in those days I rigged mine with a Disctracker headshell damper and the bass response improved tremendously. All you can do is get a Shure weight gauge, a good protractor and get the shims for the tonearm. If I was you I'd just get a Technics 1200 which has continuous VTA adjustment.

I think the lack of bass could be related to electrical noise. Deep and solid bass response is a result of good line conditioners.

I'm no guru (I'm the Psychic) and I live in Toledo Metro...

Jonathan · « **Reply #29 on:** 31 Jul 2003, 01:36 pm »

Thanks for the reply. I guess my sense is that it's definitely an issue with the turntable rig, as opposed to a dirty power problem. I get very solid and deep bass from my digital sources. It's just the NAD/Sumiko combo that is somewhat lacking right now. Again, it could be the sound of the phono preamp, as well.

I guess it would be helpful to hear another preamp or a different turntable through my current system. Anyone out there in NE Ohio interested in getting together to noodle around with this stuff?

Thanks,

Jon

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #30 on:** 31 Jul 2003, 09:10 pm »

Quote from: Jonathan

Thanks for the reply. it could be the sound of the phono preamp, as well.

Thanks,

Jon

I know what I'm saying...

If you would have experienced a really good power filter you'd understand.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #31 on:** 31 Jul 2003, 09:30 pm »

Quote from: ChuckJosephson

I know what I'm saying...

If you would have experienced a really good power filter you'd understand.

Beezer · « **Reply #32 on:** 31 Jul 2003, 09:51 pm »

Quote

ChuckJosephson wrote:

I know what I'm saying...

If you would have experienced a really good power filter you'd understand.

Tonto, did you create that somehow - too funny?!?!

Psychic, how many pounds of power filtration would you estimate is necessary for Jonathon to "understand?

Beez

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #33 on:** 2 Aug 2003, 04:49 pm »

Bass response is highly dependent on phono stage's power supply and noise level and the cartridge's trackability. My modded Stanton Groovemaster II has deep solid bass response. This is common knowledge (or perhaps not).

Tonto, you should visit Chuck and report back to us. Where's your courage?

doug s. · « **Reply #34 on:** 2 Aug 2003, 11:55 pm »

psychic is right - power filtration is important. (and a technics sl1200 would be a big upgrade over yer nad.) *but*, i had a sumiko bp on a 'table/arm, that was definitely better than what you presently have, but certainly not by a *lot*. it was a sumiko premier ft-3 arm mounted on a cj walker cj-55, modded w/ corian subchassis, delrin armboard, & stiffer springs, for the added weight of the mods... anyway, bass was excellent. and, this was prior to my delving into any power conditioners. mounting that arm/cartridge combo on an oracle delphi was a *big* improvement, in detail, soundstaging, pace & rhythm, but bass was pretty much the same. and, my system, w/a pair of vmps larger subs, can do bass if it's there in the recording...

so, i'd suspect either your mounting, or your fono-stage. i know origin live offers a li'l sleeve that allows for infinitely adjustible vta for the rega arms. less than $50. they work fine - i have one for my o-l modded rb250 arm that i'm presently using...

hth,

doug s.

michael w · « **Reply #35 on:** 3 Aug 2003, 12:56 am »

Jonathan originally posted that he got good bass from his digital so I would rule out power supply problems in this case.

As I said earlier bass is a digital strength and barring any gross errors in setup, the deficient bass is most likely due to limitations in the NAD tt.

cheerio

doug s. · « **Reply #36 on:** 3 Aug 2003, 03:17 am »

michael,

bass *is* definitely a strength of digital, but my present digital set-up's bass is only nominally better than my analog rig's. (of course, the analog rig is better *everywhere* else!)

and, my present analog rig's bass is only a little better in the bass than the set-up described above. and, its present improvements are regarding tightness/texture, etc. that nad tt, while certainly not the greatest, should still support at least good bass. even w/no power conditioning. so, i tink it's the fono-stage, or set-up at fault here. as it's hard to imagine the set-up could be so off, as to give really bad bass, i'd lean towards faulting the fono-stage.

ain't it grand trying to trouble-shoot the sound of someone's rig over the internet?

doug s.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #37 on:** 5 Aug 2003, 12:47 pm »

Quote from: michael w

As I said earlier bass is a digital strength and barring any gross errors in setup, the deficient bass is most likely due to limitations in the NAD tt.

cheerio

michael,
my own analog rig has much better bass than my digital, but the analog side is considerably more expensive than my humble (by audiophile standards) Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player. Wonder why my experience is different than yours and Doug's?? Just a matter of $$ spent??
Thanks for your thoughts,
"The Noble Indian"

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #38 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 03:26 am »

Quote from: Tonto Yoder

Wonder why my experience is different than yours and Doug's?? Just a matter of $$ spent??

It's the player, which is notorious for weak bass. Dan Wright's mods address this problem. Also, power filtration and proper power cord selection have definite influence. Get yourself a ONEAC like Byteme...

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #39 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 11:39 am »

Quote from: Psychicanimal

It's the player, which is notorious for weak bass. Dan Wright's mods address this problem. Also, power filtration and proper power cord selection have definite influence. Get yourself a ONEAC like Byteme...

I surfed eBay a bit yesterday and noticed several of the ONEACs up for auction at good prices.
Thanks