[Reverie]

Hey all,

While I've been looking at various DIY speaker cable guides (especially cat5e), it came to my attention I never gave the type of speaker connection much consideration.

Personally, I've always used banana plugs (I confess, I currently use rather chaep ones); in fact, I've never looked at spades at all. It always seemed to me that mechanically bananas made a better theoretical connection and were less exposed, even if they are usually more pricey. That said, I'm still not entirely sure how spades connect.

So really - to the point of this thread: Which do you prefer? Advantages and disadvantages of either? What do you prefer? Raw cable even?

All thoughts appreciated.

Peter 

[The_KiD]

In theory, a Spade when used in a "Gas Tight" Connection on a properly sized Binding post is probably the best connection. Reason being, there is more surface area contact.

Cheers,

KiD

[SET Man]

Hey!

   Personally I do prefer spades over banana.

Take care,
Buddy

[OTL]

This'll do it.

http://hcmaudio.com/type.asp?hdnCat=&sel=1&CategoryID=Spade+Lugs

[Scott F.]

When it comes spades vs. bananas, there good and bad sounding in both. What I've got to say won't be particularly popular especially for those that have big bucks invested in big thick Rhodium plated WBT's (and the like) but my experience using single ended triodes and full range, single driver speakers (some of the most revealing sound you'll ever hear) has led me to this point. 

When it comes to either design, low mass is optimal.

Speaking directly to bananas, the best I've found are the ones that Klaus uses on his Groneberg cables. These are very low mass copper with gold plating. They are a very tight fit to the binding post. If you've ever seen them up close, they are a flat sheet of copper stamped and rolled to the ID of a binding post (read=hollow and low mass).

The typical banana has a center post/pole (what ever you call it) made of brass (at worst) or copper (at best). The part that grips the binding post is usually a free floating piece of stamped and plated copper (I assume copper). The current transfer between the free floating stamped copper and the center post has to be iffy at best. There has to be tons of micro-arcing going on between those two independent pieces. Then your signal gets to travel through brass which has a very veiled sound to it (IMO). The Groneberg style bananas are far superior to that style of banana in every way (conduction and sound). The Radio Shack DIY locking bananas are only slightly better than the typical since they dont use that free floating piece of stamped copper.

When it comes to spades, again low mass rules sonically (IMO). Personally, I use $.04 tin plated copper, forked terminals bought in bulk from Mouser (or your favorite electrical supply house). If you decide to try these, be careful as some that are sold are made of aluminum and they don't sound so nifty. When you compare the sound of a $.04 el-cheapo spade to some $50 per pair WBT, believe it or not, the lowly forked terminal sounds better (again IMO). Are they ugly and cheap looking? ......yup.....but they sound better.

Same goes for RCA's. Low mass rules again. Proof in the pudding is the Eichmann RCA. They are extremely low mass and have a single point of contact. They are also solid copper with no gold plated nickel over brass. Myself, I use those (again) el-cheapo tin plated copper RCA's that look like they were made in the 1950's. They sound purer to my ears than the high mass designs.

The trouble with all of this is cable manufacturers play upon our want and need for what I call "Audio Jewelry". To many audiophiles, it doesn't matter what it sounds like as long as it looks cool. Lets face it, there is nothing sexy about a skinny assed piece of white Teflon outer casing that houses a shielded, twisted pair of Teflon wrapped, 22 gauge silver plated copper wires with 1950's RCA's soldered on the ends. Audiophiles want (and need) interconnects, speaker cables and power cords that look like garden hoses. The bigger and thicker the better. Its sort of like phallic symbolism, having bigger cables and connectors than the next guy.

The other problem is, unless you are into DIY and you know where to buy decent sounding parts, you will be hopelessly lost in upgrades constantly searching for cable nirvana.

Sorry for all that but I don't (particularly) buy into the cabling industry. I've played with too many over the years and I've found that my low mass DIY designs sound cleaner.

[rollo]

No connector is the best connector. Why introduce more metal than needed. Besides there will be added impedance. Just measure one for proof.
      rollo

[shep]

Ditto! Which doesn't mean you have to tear apart those expensive wires to get at the meat. It makes zero sense not to use bare wire. It should torque down real hard and you should clean contacts regularly.

[Sonny]

So really - to the point of this thread: Which do you prefer? Advantages and disadvantages of either? What do you prefer? Raw cable even?

All thoughts appreciated.

Peter 

Peter, I am one that uses no connectors...it's just another obstacle that the signal has to travel through...if you can live with it, I use the raw cables...if you are worried about, say oxidization, then tin the bare wire prior to crimping them to the speakers or amps.

Tuan

[stereocilia]

I once shorted an amp with spades.  I moved the speaker, the wire pulled the + spade into the - spade and *zap.*  Bye-bye left channel.     Now, I use bananas, I like the ones Nordost uses.

[andyr]

When it comes to either design, low mass is optimal.

Speaking directly to bananas, the best I've found are the ones that Klaus uses on his Groneberg cables. These are very low mass copper with gold plating. They are a very tight fit to the binding post. If you've ever seen them up close, they are a flat sheet of copper stamped and rolled to the ID of a binding post (read=hollow and low mass).

Hi Scott,

I absolutely agree with you.

From your description, the above banana plugs are made by Multi-Connect (German company), Part No. LS4.  The Multi-Contact distributor in your country will sell them ... alternatively, RS Components.

I use them myself.

Regards,

Andy

[andyr]

Peter, I am one that uses no connectors...it's just another obstacle that the signal has to travel through...if you can live with it, I use the raw cables...if you are worried about, say oxidization, then tin the bare wire prior to crimping them to the speakers or amps.

Tuan

Trouble is ... I thought tinning them caused a sonic degradation, compared to bare copper? 

Regards,

Andy

[Gordy]

I've read good reports of these gold plated copper bananas but, haven't tried them yet. The price seems fair enough... KnuKonceptz

For spades, I really like the all copper Vampire Wire SPD's

[lonewolfny42]

I've read good reports of these gold plated copper bananas but, haven't tried them yet. The price seems fair enough... KnuKonceptz

Will you be testing them soon ?

[mcgsxr]

I am very happy with the Eichmann Bayonets on my Bolder M-80's.  Low mass bullets for speaker cables.

[jrebman]

Same goes for RCA's. Low mass rules again. Proof in the pudding is the Eichmann RCA. They are extremely low mass and have a single point of contact. They are also solid copper with no gold plated nickel over brass. Myself, I use those (again) el-cheapo tin plated copper RCA's that look like they were made in the 1950's. They sound purer to my ears than the high mass designs.

The other problem is, unless you are into DIY and you know where to buy decent sounding parts, you will be hopelessly lost in upgrades constantly searching for cable nirvana.

So Scott, where do you actually get those 1950s RCAs?  And that wire?

I'm thinking about my Scott here, and while I can get Neutrik RCAs to fit, I have to take the shells off to do so -- and it's still a squeeze.  I tried the Eichman's too, and theoretically they will work, also with the shells off, I couldn't manage to get my arthritic hands to push them on tightly -- they are difficult even under normal circumstances.

I'm damn glad I asked Gregg Straley to put the Neutriks on the one end of the cables he made for me, because there is no way the Vampires are going to fit correctly on the back of the Scott .

-- Jim

[S Clark]

.... I have always wondered about the value of expensive cables if the weakest link in the electronic chain is the connection

[Scott F.]

So Scott, where do you actually get those 1950s RCAs?  And that wire?

Jim,

The wire is easy.
www.worldwidewire.com
This guy sells all flavors of silver plated copper wire with teflon insulation. His prices are fairly reasonable (or were, I haven't checked in a while). I've found the 600v rating to sound the best. My personal preference is the 22gau. It seems to have just the 'right' balance of silver plating to copper content, for my ears anyway. All of the wire is mil spec.

When it comes to the RCA's, male and female, that is a different story. Those can be tough to find but htey are out there. You have to scower the antique radio parts supply houses on the web. The last batch found was on eBay and one of the local guys and myself split the haul of RCA males.

On occasion, you can find the old stock RCA females that are the exact replacement to the ones on your HH Scott. When I get around to finishing my 299 restoration, I'll end using the common low mass jobbies that can be bought anywhere. I plan on altering the back of the case to go to a single pair of binding posts with a switch to change from 4/8/16 ohm. Then I'll modify the mounting board for the RCA females to accept the larger base they all seem to have now.

The HH Scott purists are probably cringing at the thought of what I'm going to do but thats OK. I don't plan on selling it or making it a museum piece. I want it to be practical and usable, as it will definitely see plenty of playing time in my shop.

[Sonny]

Peter, I am one that uses no connectors...it's just another obstacle that the signal has to travel through...if you can live with it, I use the raw cables...if you are worried about, say oxidization, then tin the bare wire prior to crimping them to the speakers or amps.

Tuan

Trouble is ... I thought tinning them caused a sonic degradation, compared to bare copper? 

Regards,

Andy

Andy, it does, but it keeps the wire from oxydization...  The other thing to do is just to clean it every other month or so...

[DonnieW]

.... I have always wondered about the value of expensive cables if the weakest link in the electronic chain is the connection

I use the very expensive silver WBT spades on the ABSOLUTE cheapest cables!   

[Gordy]

I've read good reports of these gold plated copper bananas but, haven't tried them yet. The price seems fair enough... KnuKonceptz

Will you be testing them soon ?

Sorry Chris, I got distracted by a bright shiny object, again.  Maybe someday but, for now I'm extremely happy with the light weight copper spades.  Most of my SC's are only 3' in length these days anyway, so I haven't had any urge to swap out / experiment.  That mood is subject to change of course