[alittlebird]

Nothing to gain financially no. I'm a separate entity alltogether. My services are for hire to anyone. He considers me a worthy source for speaker enclosures, and recommends me. He is not my customer.

Of course you're separate entities. Not really the issue, was it? I believe my implication was that you have a business relationship with Danny. You know, the kind of situation where if Danny sells more kits, you stand a good chance at getting more enclosure building business, since he recommends you as a good builder? There are many types of business relationships, business to business is one of them, and money doesn't always have to change hands for you to gain financially from another business's success.

Puleeze!! He's a hobbyist, who is trying to establish a credibility with no liability. Period. He's gone to great lengths for a hobbyist with minimal time on his hands (as he claims) to portray himself as something more.

Credibility with minimum liability? What are you trying to imply here? Do you seriously believe that the site is called "Zaph Audio" to try and lend more credibility to his driver tests than those posted by say Mark K, Npdang, Jon Marsh, or others who furnish this data to DIYers? Are you seriously implying that Krutke is somehow being coerced, financially or otherwise, into putting a negative slant on his reviews of GR drivers? I wonder if all the other diyers who do driver testing are on the same payroll... maybe I can get in on some of the slush cash - I could start a site called "Arthur Dent Audio" and refer to it in the third person, and everyone will assume I'm an authority! That's the ticket!

[alittlebird]

You people should just stop this is stupid.

It's hard not to reply sometimes when people start piling onto something, especially when its a resource that you've had a lot of good use of and frankly are very grateful for. But you're right, I won't be posting again on this topic. I hope Zaph's blog comes back,  and I hope Danny's business has continued success.

[dlr]

I really hope that this brouhaha didn't all get started because someone misread and misinterpreted his comments. It's looking to me like this may have been one big goofup not of John's making.

I don't think I misinterpreted his comments in that nasty e-mail he sent me or all the claims of me being a snake oil salesman. This to me makes is motives very clear and certainly does not make me think he is making some unbiased comments.

Making it public was not John's doing, why bash him for your action on that issue?

And I have a suspicion that a few, maybe just a few, of your comments are not altogether unbiased either. But you expect John to have absolutely no bias whatsoever on a topic as subjective as raw drivers. No one, not even you, can present absolutely every aspect of measurements of any driver, it would take too much to fully cover that. So you have to put your product in a positive light, even though I'm sure that you don't believe them to be perfect. Would you dissuade any and all DIY hobbyists from posting anything about your drivers that you disagree with? Do they have no right to disagree with you?

What if they were to promote your product as far superior to another based on measurements that some might think to be suspect? Would you vehemently chastise them for their actions? Or would you say "Thank you for the kind words."?

[Daygloworange]

I believe my implication was that you have a business relationship with Danny. You know, the kind of situation where if Danny sells more kits, you stand a good chance at getting more enclosure building business, since he recommends you as a good builder? There are many types of business relationships, business to business is one of them, and money doesn't always have to change hands for you to gain financially from another business's success.

   Uh, yeah, well, if I was solely interested in this from a pure business standpoint, I would have kept out of this whole thing. I don't live life that way. I'm firmly established in my business, with or without speaker building. No hidden agenda here.

Still, nice try, BTW .

What are you trying to imply here? Do you seriously believe that the site is called "Zaph Audio" to try and lend more credibility to his driver tests than those posted by say Mark K, Npdang, Jon Marsh, or others who furnish this data to DIYers?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying.

Are you seriously implying that Krutke is somehow being coerced, financially or otherwise, into putting a negative slant on his reviews of GR drivers?

No, I'm never implied anything of the sort. I don't believe that to be the case at all. That would be collusion.

Cheers

[DanWiggins]

I need some clarification on Dan Wiggins post comparing the Adire and AA woofers. Are you sure are reading that graph right Dan? I won't use the Adire because the levels jsut happen to be the same but for the AA I would think that for a fundamental of 20Hz the level of the 2nd harmonic is -50dB at 40Hz and for the 3rd -60dB at 60Hz? I beleive the level is graphed at the frequency it is measured. I could be wrong though? Anyway I do see the point about equalized levels though. I just wanted to make sure I'm reading the graphs correctly.

Thanks for bringing this up - seriously!  Please do NOT take this the wrong way - I mean ZERO disrespect by it!  But you are, in fact, reading the graph incorrectly!  This further illustrates the issues with interpretation of the data as is, and my PERSONAL philosophy is that if the audience does NOT understand the data, it's best to not even PRESENT the data because it eliminates the chance of improper conclusions (and those improper conclusions usually lead to audio myths; most are grounded - long ago - in some semblance of reality but have been distorted from ignorance, like the whole "one cap means a first order crossover" myth).

In actuality, the graphs as shown show the levels of the harmonics for the given tone!  You read vertically down the graph, not diagonally.  For example the AA6.5 at 40 Hz has:

2nd: -50 dB
3rd: - 55 dB
4th: -72 dB
5th: -72 dB

You look at the frequency point you want on the fundamental (F1) trace, and go straight down to the X axis to find where each curve intersects.  So in essence the harmonic curves mean the level of the harmonic at the fundamental frequency listed on the X axis.

Clear as mud?

[Christof]

 

[jackman]

Just joining this thread...what' I miss???

[Danny Richie]

The measurements are what they are and none of them are bad.   The comments are just that...

The measurements certainly are what they are. If left at "that" we wouldn't be here. The comments are not "just that". It's like he said let's see, how can I make these look worse than they are? Plastic frame, FAKE phase plug... to much intent to demean. Knowing what he already thought of me, the motive is clear.

How about this one on the M-165X Kevin? "The suspension is a bit too small to fully support the excursion the motor is capable of." That sounds like somebody really messed up huh. Man the suspension is too small.

Your Extremis was found with the same issue, but he said, "Excursion is more suspension limited than motor limited." Yea, that must be one killer motor!

dlr,

Would you dissuade any and all DIY hobbyists from posting anything about your drivers that you disagree with?

Not at all.

Do they have no right to disagree with you?

Disagreement is NOT the issue here. You can't through yourself out there as the unbiased servant to the DIY community and then bash the guy that you don't like with negative and not expect to hear from him eventually.

[JoshK]

What are you trying to imply here? Do you seriously believe that the site is called "Zaph Audio" to try and lend more credibility to his driver tests than those posted by say Mark K, Npdang, Jon Marsh, or others who furnish this data to DIYers?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying.

Give me a break.   

[ShinOBIWAN]

Just who the hell is Zaph Audio or John Krutke for that matter?

Yes indeed Mr Daygloworange/Custom Concepts/whoever you are. Rich stuff.

All your now doing is looking desperate trying to shift the argument in any direction that suits your agenda. First the measurements and now that's been done to the point where everyone is even more confused, lets roll onto Zaph/John trying to pose as a professional, which confuses the hell out of me given John's history and distinct disdain for BS.

What about Tony Gee and his Humble Hifi website? Does this imply that he's a professional and the designs he provides can be taken as such? No because people with common sense realise that anyone can setup a website and provide content. John sells nothing, asks for nothing and provides content as-is. His measurements are indicative of performance simple as.

Its now gone past the intentions of Danny's initial post and into a childish witch hunt.

Well let me tell you, go start a poll anywhere outside of this forum asking who they value more: Johns website or GR Research. You'd be surprised.

If he wanted to avoid all of this, he should have stuck to his promise of this, at the end of his comments on the page where he reviewed the M-130.

The page was taken down and put back up in that outdated section because of requests to do so.

It would go a long way, if he simply made an effort to extend Danny some professional courtesy.

Why would he do that when Danny sent that initial condescending email? Hardly makes you want to reach for the phone and have a good old chinwag does it.

[ShinOBIWAN]

The big picture is that some people are trying to trivialize John Krutke's comments on the M-130 woofer. There is nothing trivial about the potential harm. Danny has been backed into a corner. I'm supporting him, and not about to hear of comments portraying him as an ass.

Why don't you give me a call and I can tell you how to build a decent cabinet. Your efforts so far are rough but show promise and given my advice you'll be doing much better in no time. You could learn much, so feel privileged and give me a call.

IRONY

[ShinOBIWAN]

What are you trying to imply here? Do you seriously believe that the site is called "Zaph Audio" to try and lend more credibility to his driver tests than those posted by say Mark K, Npdang, Jon Marsh, or others who furnish this data to DIYers?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying.

All those hours you spent typing and defending Danny have just been wasted in one short sentence.

[Danny Richie]

Hey, this thread has already full of enough as it is, you guys quite taking swipes at each other.

Why would he do that when Danny sent that initial condescending email? Hardly makes you want to reach for the phone and have a good old chinwag does it.

Well it was certainly not my intent to be condescending, but clearly it came across that way. I am certainly will to apologize for the tone of the e-mail. Maybe you can forward it to John for me. My e-mail is blocked.

[dBe]

Take it from me, any attempt to try to speak in conciliatory terms with John are merely wasted breath.  All it ever did for me was get even more profanity and derision back.  I'd say to let well enough alone, cut your losses and move on.  Ignorance can be cured with education. Stupidity goes all of the way to the bone.  The people that spew are the latter, not the former, unfortunately.

My .02

Dave the geezer

[WEEZ]

18th page. No comment from Zaph Audio. Interesting. Onward.

 

WEEZ

[JohninCR]

At least one good thing came out of this ridiculous thread.  Thanks to Dan's measurements and info at different distances, I'm not going to waste any time with nearfield measurements.  Why measure them like they're headphones if you don't use them that way?

BTW Danny, as an independent observer and DIYer I didn't read any real criticism in John's test results.  The end result is that your driver was pulled for Zaph's site, so you lose exposure.  This thread made me aware of them and they're cheap in relation to performance, so I'll probably give a pair a try.

Dayglow,
Don't try to pawn yourself off as independent when you have a fairly direct business relationship.  BTW, last time I checked you don't meet the new disclosure requirements for those in the business, so you shouldn't even be posting.  Trying to pass Danny off as having a halo and wings doesn't fly either.  He may be as nice as can be in person, but in my limited experience in the forum has been the opposite, with an unwarranted condescending attitude toward me, combined with not doing what he said he would do.  I don't mean that as criticism, just a friendly viewpoint, because sometimes we don't realize how we may come across using the written word.  I know because my words are often taken in a way that I don't intend (this post will no doubt be one of those times).

[laserman]

Well, well, well…this topic has grown to 18 pages and over 4700 views.  Pretty soon I will have to dust off my anthropology books to see what this all means.  lol

Shinobiwan states, “Yeah its a bitch when you can't get everyone to agree with you.”  Hmmmmmmmm, déjà vu …same thing you said over on an AVS Forum thread.  He then goes on to say, “I'm sure you realise that the DIY community is very heavily based around forum chit-chat.  You may think you've done good work here but its a circus show, a comedy and a tragedy all rolled into one. Nothing productive has come out of it and there's a bad taste in many folk's mouth's. John has already taken down his blog which folks enjoyed readed and if he takes his website down then be sure that this 'little site that no one pays attention to' (your words) would cause many to remember the circumstances surrounding that.  You should have played it professionally IMO.”  And, then this statement, “Its now gone past the intentions of Danny's initial post and into a childish witch hunt.  Well let me tell you, go start a poll anywhere outside of this forum asking who they value more: Johns website or GR Research. You'd be surprised.”  Shinobiwan, this sounds very dark and threatening from where I come from.  Geeeez, now why do you have such animosity towards Danny?  This did not involve you at all but you seem to want to be in the spotlight.  Your agenda would be…?

Kevin Haskins, I think of you as one to the “good guys” in this audio equipment jungle we all have to venture through, so why are you all of a sudden acting like you have a dog in this race?  You respectfully mentioned you had/have a burr under your saddle but still treat Danny in a civil fashion.  Why do you now come out with the comment, “…You made it public.  The snake oil salesman he has now taken down.” 

Kevin, I thought you would stay on the sidelines but now you are throwing yourself into this issue.  I was one of the people who auditioned your UcD amp and returned it to you (it did beat out a NuForce Amp though) with my reasons for doing so.  I’m sure other people did the exact same thing and it was long before the shootout Danny performed.  IMHO, I find it hard to believe his shootout resulted in lost business for you.  Is it possible?  Yes, it’s possible if people weren’t willing to explore the amp further.  However, if you had continued to offer an audition period for the assembled amp it may have provided you with more conclusive results. 

As I stated earlier, Danny airing his concern publicly was probably a hard decision to make but it needed to be done.  This open dialogue has taught me a lot from a technical standpoint and even more about life in general.  Thank you Danny for allowing this to happen.  You certainly have gotten more than you expected from a positive as well as negative standpoint.

Peace,
L

[ShinOBIWAN]

Shinobiwan, this sounds very dark and threatening from where I come from.  Geeeez, now why do you have such animosity towards Danny?  This did not involve you at all but you seem to want to be in the spotlight.  Your agenda would be…?

Bossobass,

Yes my intention was for them to across that way and my agenda is to see that John's work isn't derided for the sake of keeping up appearances and pedantic nonsense. And it does involve me because I stop by Johns site once maybe twice a week, he's already removed his blog and if there was a chance he decided to throw in the towel because of some rather daft issues then forgive me for not being happy about it. There's also the small issue of me strongly believing Danny's issues are more about confusion made by others.

[Vapor Audio]

Yes my intention was for them to across that way and my agenda is to see that John's work isn't derided for the sake of keeping up appearances and pedantic nonsense. And it does involve me because I stop by Johns site once maybe twice a week, he's already removed his blog and if there was a chance he decided to throw in the towel because of some rather daft issues then forgive me for not being happy about it. There's also the small issue of me strongly believing Danny's issues are more about confusion made by others.

Are you really that big a baby?  Is John?  I doubt John is, but you're sounding that way ...

If the instigators like yourself could let go of your need for internet drama, you might learn something.  I doubt you've noticed, because it doesn't help your agenda, but there IS a lot of good information in this thread.  The burden of proof has been met many times over, from multiple sources - John's data, while valuable, has flaws which should be acknowledged, accepted, and hopefully understood by the people who now simply take it at face value (I consider myself in this group).  The same goes for any data gleaned nearfield or outside of an anechoic room, and that means pretty much all of it on the internet. 

[Daygloworange]

JohninCR,

If you're trying to be a s**tdisturber, take it to JohnR.

As far as pawning myself off, my association with GR Research and RAW Acoustics is pretty clear and in plain English for anyone to read. My entire history (as pertaining to things audio) is here for anyone to peruse. No hidden agendas. Sorry.

Still, nice try.

ShinOBIWAN,

I'll leave you to shadowbox with yourself, it'll be more of an even matchup.

Cheers