[Danny Richie]

The measured data shows nothing except a well behaved driver.

You're correct. They all looked well behaved. So why pick out the M-130 and demean and belittle it with things like "plastic frame and fake phase plug" or observations that don't fit with his own measured responses, like suck outs or energy storage problems?

[Daygloworange]

ShinOBIWAN,

These are the comments from John Krutke that Danny has reason to have a issue with. One by one:

GR M130 -          FACTUAL

 coated paper cone,      FACTAUL (Possible implication of inferior material)

plastic frame w/6 holes,     FACTAUL (Possible implication of inferior material)

fake phase plug,              ERRONEOUS  with negative implication

good motor venting.         FACTUAL with positive implication

Breakup node at 5.5kHz with energy storage problem.     SUBJECTIVE EVALUATION (possibly erroneous)with negative implication

Strange suckout at 1900hz, not visible in gated or smoothed curves.  APPARENTLY ERRONEOUS with negative implication.

I see only one positive comment from John Krutke on this woofer in these comments. Somebody could wrongly assume this driver is NOT even worth consideration.

These comments are potentially very harmful to GR Research as they cater to the DIY speaker market. Bottom line. To imply that John's Krutke's evaluations( posing as a viable entity known as Zaph AUDIO ) can't possibly have a potentially negative effect on GR Research is incredibly obtuse.

Cheers

[ShinOBIWAN]

One day I'd love to share our experiences together (listen to some of these subjective things) and I would bet that in the same situation we'd hear and notice the same things. My door is always open to anyone that wants to listen.

John on the other hand does not share this attitude, does he? There's a big difference!

Not everyone in the world gets along, even those seemingly sharing a common interest.

But I pretty much suspect that's why you've gone to these lengths to beat a dead horse and try to make someone else look like an ass. You do realise that your starting to bring GR bad publicity. Many casual DIY'ers have some level of respect for what John does, on the other hand many don't really care what GR is, has done or will do. You should play those numbers.

I'm sure you realise that the DIY community is very heavily based around forum chit-chat.

You may think you've done good work here but its a circus show, a comedy and a tragedy all rolled into one. Nothing productive has come out of it and there's a bad taste in many folk's mouth's. John has already taken down his blog which folks enjoyed readed and if he takes his website down then be sure that this 'little site that no one pays attention to' (your words) would cause many to remember the circumstances surrounding that.

You should have played it professionally IMO.

[Daygloworange]

You really are obtuse. Seriously.

Cheers

[dlr]

There is no 1.9Khz dip in his measurements.

You're right. Thanks for helping me make my point.

So why was it included in his comments? This is what he had to say bout the M-130.

GR M130 - coated paper cone, plastic frame w/6 holes, fake phase plug, good motor venting. Breakup node at 5.5kHz with energy storage problem. Strange suckout at 1900hz, not visible in gated or smoothed curves.

Someone mentioned that there was a dip in his distortion measurements at 1900, IIRC. If you read his quoted comment here, he says "Strange suckout at 1900hz, not visible in gated or smoothed curves." John, I believe, refers to his MLS measurements as "gated", meaning a windowed MLS measurement. If that's the case, his statement is accurate, i.e. there is no suckout in his MLS (gated) measurement. He made that point himself. There is nothing contradictory here. He said, in essence "I see no suckout in the MLS measurement, but I see one in the distortion tests". That was possibly what prompted his comment. He must have been puzzled in seeing it in the distortion tests, but not in the MLS SPL measurement.

His comment about the 5.5K energy storage as it appears in his "gated" measurement, not a near-field one I believe (linked by ShinOBIWAN), is indeed applicable if one does not like energy storage there. As to it being a problem, I think that he's free to make that statement since to him it may be. Just as some folks who like metal cones (Siegfried Linkwitz amoung them) don't find them to be so when others do.

I really hope that this brouhaha didn't all get started because someone misread and misinterpreted his comments. It's looking to me like this may have been one big goofup not of John's making.

[ShinOBIWAN]

ShinOBIWAN,

These are the comments from John Krutke that Danny has reason to have a issue with. One by one:

GR M130 -          FACTUAL

 coated paper cone,      FACTAUL (Possible implication of inferior material)

plastic frame w/6 holes,     FACTAUL (Possible implication of inferior material)

fake phase plug,              ERRONEOUS  with negative implication

good motor venting.         FACTUAL with positive implication

Breakup node at 5.5kHz with energy storage problem.     SUBJECTIVE EVALUATION (possibly erroneous)with negative implication

Strange suckout at 1900hz, not visible in gated or smoothed curves.  APPARENTLY ERRONEOUS with negative implication.

I see only one positive comment from John Krutke on this woofer in these comments. Somebody could wrongly assume this driver is NOT even worth consideration.

These comments are potentially very harmful to GR Research as they cater to the DIY speaker market. Bottom line. To imply that John's Krutke's evaluations( posing as a viable entity known as Zaph AUDIO ) can't possibly have a potentially negative effect on GR Research is incredibly obtuse.

Cheers

Is Johns site a definitive guide or is it just some site where a bloke posts his thoughts and measurements? You seem to think its the former.

Don't look around the web too hard because there's 1000's of these erroneous statements that others read and believe. Why stop at John? You've set yourself up on quite the crusade.

Quit policing everyone else and make statements through positively moving forward with your own achievements.

[ShinOBIWAN]

You really are obtuse. Seriously.

Cheers

Yeah its a bitch when you can't get everyone to agree with you

[Daygloworange]

Is Johns site a definitive guide or is it just some site where a bloke posts his thoughts and measurements? You seem to think its the former.

No, it's not definitive. Bottom line, he's a hobbyist, but his site is called Zaph Audio. Which implies credibility.

Don't look around the web too hard because there's 1000's of these erroneous statements that others read and believe. Why stop at John? You've set yourself up on quite the crusade.

I don't look around too hard. No crusade here. Just defending someone I respect very much, from attacks for defending his product.

Quit policing everyone else and make statements through positively moving forward with your own achievements.

Not policing anyone, just presenting facts. I have done very, very well in my own achievements, and continue to do so at an alarming rate.

Cheers

[ShinOBIWAN]

No, it's not definitive. Bottom line, he's a hobbyist, but his site is called Zaph Audio. Which implies credibility.

When I'm designing/building a speaker I often give them a name. Does this mean I'm implying credibility or that I just want to give something a little bit of personality. Again I think your reading too much into this as others may do with Johns website which brings us full circle.

I don't look around too hard. No crusade here. Just defending someone I respect very much, from attacks for defending his product.

Well I can relate to that but haven't you ever stopped to look at the bigger picture instead of getting lost in this one thread?

I have done very, very well in my own achievements, and continue to do so at an alarming rate.

That's good, its always nice to see success but not at someone else's expense.

[Danny Richie]

I really hope that this brouhaha didn't all get started because someone misread and misinterpreted his comments. It's looking to me like this may have been one big goofup not of John's making.

I don't think I misinterpreted his comments in that nasty e-mail he sent me or all the claims of me being a snake oil salesman. This to me makes is motives very clear and certainly does not make me think he is making some unbiased comments.

[Daygloworange]

When I'm designing/building a speaker I often give them a name. Does this mean I'm implying credibility or that I just want to give something a little bit of personality. Again I think your reading too much into this as others may do with Johns website which brings us full circle.

That different. Apples and oranges. Perception is everything. As it stands, he is a poseur. As an entity, and as an authority.

Well I can relate to that but haven't you ever stopped to look at the bigger picture instead of getting lost in this one thread?

The big picture is that some people are trying to trivialize John Krutke's comments on the M-130 woofer. There is nothing trivial about the potential harm. Danny has been backed into a corner. I'm supporting him, and not about to hear of comments portraying him as an ass.

That's good, its always nice to see success but not at someone else's expense.

Yes, it is, isn't it?

Cheers

[Kevin Haskins]

I really hope that this brouhaha didn't all get started because someone misread and misinterpreted his comments. It's looking to me like this may have been one big goofup not of John's making.

I don't think I misinterpreted his comments in that nasty e-mail he sent me or all the claims of me being a snake oil salesman. This to me makes is motives very clear and certainly does not make me think he is making some unbiased comments.

Yes... but the nasty email was private.   You made it public.   The snake oil salesman he has now taken down.   Maybe after cooling down a little.   He is entitled to his personal opinion of you and visa versa.

I'd say you are beating a dead horse.   The measurements are what they are and none of them are bad.   The comments are just that... he has to say something and he made some comments about what he saw during the measurements.   

The validity of the distortion measurements  and their context are something that people tend to take out of stride but hey... what are you going to do?   Expect everyone to sign a waver or attend a course in acoustic measurements before they view the site?   

[Daygloworange]

Kevin,

I respectfully disagree with you. Comments like these, where John refers to himself as an entity tells me a lot about him.

Here at Zaph|Audio, in the testing department, ribbons are not exactly well represented.

In his blog he stated this in regards to Danny:

This is the kind of fire that burns for a while, and like I said, I'm not interested in participating. I'll make sure this blog post stays up for a while so people can see that I am aware of Danny Richie's antics. Some of you, particularly my European readers are probably thinking "who the hell is Danny Richie?" Well, I can only hope he doesn't worsen your opinion of Americans.

Zaph Audio is John's alter ego, akin to referring to oneself in the third person, since he is not a commercial entity, with no potential for financial harm to him. Just who the hell is Zaph Audio or John Krutke for that matter?

Does nobody find this grandiose?

If he wanted to avoid all of this, he should have stuck to his promise of this, at the end of his comments on the page where he reviewed the M-130.

This page is only temporary, so if you want to refer back to this data, please save it to your hard drive.

Danny has been pretty passive in all of this. John, has removed his blog page since all this started, he's aware of the fallout out of all this, yet has not made any strides to privately(or publically) acknowledge any remorse for the potentially harmful comments regarding the M-130.

It would go a long way, if he simply made an effort to extend Danny some professional courtesy.

Cheers

[alittlebird]

One day I'd love to share our experiences together (listen to some of these subjective things) and I would bet that in the same situation we'd hear and notice the same things. My door is always open to anyone that wants to listen.

John on the other hand does not share this attitude, does he? There's a big difference!

Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that Zaph does not earn his living selling audio products and services to hobbyists? Seems to me you have a vested financial interest in your 'door always being open to anyone who wants to listen', I'm sure Rick Craig, Al Wooley, Kevin Haskins, and others in this business's doors are also 'open'. It seems a bit much to ask the same of a spare-time hobbyist, doesn't it? Holding yourself up for comparison to that is pretty disingenuous, IMHO.

I don't look around too hard. No crusade here. Just defending someone I respect very much, from attacks for defending his product.

And that's all right? Certainly you don't have say, a business relationship with Danny or anything like that?

Bottom line, he's a hobbyist, but his site is called Zaph Audio. Which implies credibility.

Did you even read this before posting? So abbreviating the name of a Douglas Adams character, and adding the word 'audio' implies credibility? What other monikers followed by 'audio' would imply credibility in your estimation? Any other suffixes that we should be on the lookout for?

[Kevin Haskins]

Kevin,

I respectfully disagree with you. Comments like these, where John refers to himself as an entity tells me a lot about him.

Here at Zaph|Audio, in the testing department, ribbons are not exactly well represented.

Zaph Audio is John's alter ego, akin to referring to oneself in the third person, since he is not a commercial entity, with no potential for financial harm to him.

If he wanted to avoid all of this, he should have stuck to his promise of this, at the end of his comments on the page where he reviewed the M-130.

This page is only temporary, so if you want to refer back to this data, please save it to your hard drive.

That is ok... at least it is respectful.      I don't see anything wrong with his comments about ribbons.   The Neo3 was praised for having good distortion measurements (a model that Danny sells, uses in designs & promotes).   

In terms of not being a commercial entity, I don't know exactly why that would be a reason to discredit him.   I think several of the review magazines are little more than hobbies for the people who run them.   How could you ever measure and post data and not have it effect someone in a commercial way? 

Danny has been pretty passive in all of this. John, has removed his blog page since all this started, he's aware of the fallout out of all this, yet has not made any strides to privately(or publically) acknowledge any remorse for the potentially harmful comments regarding the M-130.

It would go a long way, if he simply made an effort to extend Danny some professional courtesy.

Cheers

I don't think he is obligated to do anything.   Danny brought all this up.   If someone caused a big stink in front of your house would you be obligated to go out and deal with it?   You might want to go out and kick some arse but you might decide to stay inside and let it blow over.   I assume John doesn't want to come out of the house and play in the mud.    That is his prerogative since he didn't bring it out into the public to begin with.   He simply measured the drivers in the same way as he did all the others.   He made comments both positive and negative on all the drivers.   If he had to defend every negative comment he wouldn't have anytime left in the day.

[Daygloworange]

And that's all right? Certainly you don't have say, a business relationship with Danny or anything like that?

Nothing to gain financially no. I'm a separate entity alltogether. My services are for hire to anyone (commercial or private). He considers me a worthy source for speaker enclosures, and recommends me. He is not my customer.

Nice try, BTW.  

Did you even read this before posting? So abbreviating the name of a Douglas Adams character, and adding the word 'audio' implies credibility? What other monikers followed by 'audio' would imply credibility in your estimation? Any other suffixes that we should be on the lookout for?

Puleeze!! He's a hobbyist, who is trying to establish a credibility with no liability. Period. He's gone to great lengths for a hobbyist with minimal time on his hands (as he claims) to portray himself as something more.

Cheers

[alittlebird]

Kevin is correct. A very similar situation occurred not to while ago in the amp shootout, and if I recall correctly, there wasn't any 'professional courtesy' being extended there. I also do not recall any petty name calling, condesencion, or trashing of 'competing' designs from Kevin in response either. Maybe Kevin just doesn't have enough 'affiliates' to throw a proper pity party?   

[sts9fan]

You people should just stop this is stupid.

[Kevin Haskins]

You people should just stop this is stupid.

Your right... I'm bowing out here folks.    I'll delete some of my above comments because they are not germane to this debate and I'm stinking up Danny's house.

[whippersnapper]

I need some clarification on Dan Wiggins post comparing the Adire and AA woofers. Are you sure are reading that graph right Dan? I won't use the Adire because the levels jsut happen to be the same but for the AA I would think that for a fundamental of 20Hz the level of the 2nd harmonic is -50dB at 40Hz and for the 3rd -60dB at 60Hz? I beleive the level is graphed at the frequency it is measured. I could be wrong though? Anyway I do see the point about equalized levels though. I just wanted to make sure I'm reading the graphs correctly.