All CD Players sound the same. All CD Players sound the same?

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #100 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 04:56 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 19 Feb 2007, 04:06 pm

Wind Chaser,

I find your 'tough love' style quite amusing However, it's largely wasted on me because I am not advocating a large-scale comeback for vinyl, merely stating that spending less on a CD player will save money and frustration....as it a largely a more flawed playback medium than vinyl.

They are both flawed, for resons pointed out throughtout the proceeding 10 pages.....but, utimately, vinyl allows you to connect with the music's wholeness, while CD keeps you wondering what is missing

For a meager investment of perhaps $750.00 with turntable, integrated arm, cartridge and cleaning machine, you can best any CD player in several regards as to musicality. I'm not thinking that vinyl is making a large-scale comback at any time...it is waaay too tweeky for most.

TCG,

It ain’t tough love so much as tough luck! You’ve been ranting and raving about your love for vinyl for a long now. This thread isn’t the only evidence of that. Face it; you are an audiophile first, music lover second. Your audiophile hang-ups stand in the way of your appreciation of music while people who love music gravitate towards software availability.

You say vinyl and digital are both flawed. Well the truth is - everything is flawed - including your perception. If the CD keeps you wondering what is missing than so does your vinyl, amplification, speakers, room, ears and sanity! Such is the audiophile disease. Rest assured, you have my pity…

$750 for a complete vinyl playback system is a joke; forget about the stupid LP washing machine. Your claim demonstrates just how clueless you are. Obviously you haven’t heard good digital and let alone good vinyl. You need to get over all you audiophile hang ups and go back to listening to the radio. AM radio in your case is preferable.

Steve Eddy · « **Reply #101 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 05:03 pm »

C'mon. No need for insults like that.

se

macrojack · « **Reply #102 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 05:06 pm »

A while back someone praised this thread for its decorum. I feel it is starting to get a little ugly. Please refrain from impugning each others character or judgment. Never say never.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #103 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 05:06 pm »

Again folks, I'm not at all a completely jaded person. I believe there might be hope for CD, but after 20 years the possibilities seem to be greatly dimming.

I have by no means 'heard it all', but I have heard a LOT....and none (zero/zilch/nada/zip) have represented themselves to offer the 'wholeness' and musicality of good vinyl. Trust me, I love remote control and all the inherent conveniences of CD - I'd love for it to stand heads and shoulders above vinyl - but it doesn't

Consider this, guys; there are far more cartridges and turntables available now than there were 10 years ago. Although it is starting from a meager base, vinyl sales are actually increasing in an era of declining CD sales. Companies like Denon now offer 6 cartridges, up from two only a couple years ago, and re-introduced a top-of-the-line direct drive model in the past year.

Denon is fully committed to a digital future - they have their hand in every technology that exists today. But, they made a business decision to participate in vinyl once again. The numbers were irrefutable to them. It's not nostalgic the reasons for their re-entry to vinyl - it's driven by monetary reasons.

Fact is, after 20 years many more folks than anyone could've imagined 20 years ago are now investing in vinyl as a viable playback medium. It doesn't just happen that one wants to play records more than CD's....it is because they are inherently more musical and a market exists for it to fill.

It's getting somewhat off the original topic premise now. That being SPEND LESS, NOT MORE, ON YOUR CD SOURCES. I pissed away $$$$thousands chasing something that doesn't exist with that medium - music. That is the one reason we are all here at AudioCircle, to better our music experience, and this is my small gift to many of you that may make the same financially penalizing moves I have. It is here and being offered for your review - it is fully up to you to believe or not - however, it seems several have piped up throughout this topic and have echoed the same sentiments as I raised aa

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #104 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 05:12 pm »

Wind Chaser (Wind Bag?),

You're putting me in a lousy position. I am both the Moderator of Audio Central and a Global Moderator. If you posted what you have posted to me in response to any member at AudiCircle....I'd be advising you to keep your tone civil.

I take your post not nearly as personally as you might think....but I am telling you, solely as the Moderator here at Audio Central, if you can't participate nicely - please do not participate at all in this topic.

If you cannot respond and get along with other members (ultimately I am a member first and Mod second, so I qualify), stronger disciplinary action will be required.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #105 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 05:14 pm »

This is quite an interesting discussion to me and one that I'll be thinking about on my travels.

konut · « **Reply #106 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 05:53 pm »

You should ALL be ashamed of yourselves! Edison had it right. Until you've heard wax cylinders you just havn't lived! I'm not talking about any wax cylinders, oh no, no, no! I'm talkin Siberian bees wax, with that natural cryogenic mojo. Manually applied by Russian virgins warming the wax on their thighs. Played back with those northern Norwegian pine needles! Untouched by pesticides, pollution and other man made nasties. Stereo? Who needs stereo! The recordings are made in real time by real musicians , playing real insturments, real good. Talk about organic! The soul of the music comes through like no other way! Point source, phase correct, acoustically generated and acoustically reproduced. Thats what I'm talkin about!! Your guys' whole problem is your reliance on electrons doing your dirty work. You think those electrons wanna do as they're told? They're fighting you every step of the way. Just look at those circuit boards! Did you ever see anything so convoluted and complicated? This is why ALL your delivery systems are flawed and always will be. Dragging rocks through plastic, using algorithms. PLASTIC! ALGORITHMS! BAAAAH!!
You guys using batteries are the worst. Imprisoning those electrons to do your bidding........... What did they ever do to you? Ought to be against the law, I say. The utility companies have got you all snookered.

The whole thing is a capitalistic plot designed to extract the hard earned cash from your back pocket. You guys fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Sheeesh!

Daygloworange · « **Reply #107 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 06:02 pm »

Quote

I pissed away $$$$thousands chasing something that doesn't exist with that medium - music.

I respect your opinion, TCG, but I must wholly disagree with you on that. As an analog (albeit analog tape) guy for decades, I have never been so pleased with the sheer musicality, detail, and dynamics I am hearing now, since I've started tweaking on my SB setup. I'm finding that the realism of the recordings is astonishing.

You have to remember, I have sat in many a control room, listened to what the sounds are before they hit the tape, before they are fed back through a mixer, and mixed to another machine, then mastered to yet another machine. Then played back and interpreted through yet another system.

I am hearing recordings with the same impact and fidelity as it sounds off the studio floor. I couldn't be happier and more enthusiastic.

Having said all that, I haven't had a good vinyl set up ever. So, as such I can't possibly state with certainty that you are unequivocally wrong. But I think that you are unfairly characterizing the digital medium.

Just putting in my 2 cents, as you have as well.

Cheers

Marbles · « **Reply #108 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 06:09 pm »

Quote from: konut on 19 Feb 2007, 05:53 pm

I'm talkin Siberian bees wax, with that natural cryogenic mojo. Manually applied by Russian virgins warming the wax on their thighs.

If it's virgin girls/women, I'd like to see pictures of the process...just for the scientific aspect

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #109 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 06:16 pm »

It's all my opinion and my experience, guys. It's up to you all to respond, take issue with or believe. Consider that I do not have any monetary interest in selling you on vinyl....where as there are many interests tugging at you to 'upgrade' your CD playback.

As I don't believe I've seen another post like this in over 4 years here at AC; I thought it might offer fresh perspective. There is just so many 'cable break-in' posts we can all take

No chest-thumping here or ever...I was fortunate to be born of humble stock and have remained mostly so

miklorsmith · « **Reply #110 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 06:30 pm »

TCG - I respect your well considered and experienced views. For the digital among us, this kind of discourse is invaluable. It's easy to hide and assume what we have is great, good enough, the best, whatever. It's much tougher to challenge the values we hold dear and risk turning them inside out. This is at the essence of learning, something we all knew naturally as children and unwittingly allowed to erode over time. Only by humble willingness to listen, honestly consider, and reinvent can we make true advancements in our personal understandings.

shep · « **Reply #111 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 06:37 pm »

I second that 100$ and I would add something but I will hold my tongue and keep my ire to myself. The best way not to fan flames is to walk away from the smoke. It will usually go away of its own accord.

eric the red · « **Reply #112 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 06:51 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 19 Feb 2007, 05:06 pm

A while back someone praised this thread for its decorum. I feel it is starting to get a little ugly. Please refrain from impugning each others character or judgment. Never say never.

"Don't never say never. Hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper"
-jockey Sammy Renick

miklorsmith · « **Reply #113 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 07:08 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 19 Feb 2007, 06:46 pm

If I hear a song I like on AM radio, that doesn’t stop me from connecting to it in the least.

Interesting observation - I find I can really enjoy music I know in the car. If I don't know the music already it almost never catches. I can listen to a CD in the car, write it off, then listen at home and realize it's good. Afterward I can enjoy it in the car.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #114 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 07:28 pm »

Quote from: 'Wind Chaser"

"You’ve been ranting and raving about your love for vinyl for a long now"

"Your audiophile hang-ups"

"everything is flawed - including your perception"

"Your claim demonstrates just how clueless you are"

"You need to get over all you audiophile hang ups and go back to listening to the radio. AM radio in your case is preferable."

Direct quotes from a 'civil' man? Listen, I'm an extremely fair person, but I have my own brand of diplomacy. I'm not one to turn the other cheek much after withering an attack like this.

If you don't like what is being said, say so, but don't 'pity' (another quote) or denigrate me or my beliefs. Hang your ass out there and create a topic somehow counter to my beliefs...and see what feedback you get from the members.

I recognize everyone can have a bad/grumpy day (myself, included, I assure you), and things can be taken out of context, but there is no mistaking the context of your above statements. Tho, you have now tried to make nice and squiggle away from them with your newest response. Perhaps you have re-read your statements and would like to apologize for the harshness of them? If so, I accept willingly and let's move this topic on or let it wither and die

As a Moderator I would admonish you to behave if you stated the above to ANY member. It only just happens to be me this time

macrojack · « **Reply #115 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 07:45 pm »

I share Chair Guy's intial premise concerning digital but I don't share his confidence in that opinion. I have lost my ass on digital as well and today I have a Sony DVP-S7000 antique DVD player and an RWA DAC which uses a digital interconnect that Vinnie provided. My total investment is under $700. The thinking here is that digital is a loser (financially speaking). It's resale follows the computer model more than the hi-fi schedule. The less I have in it, the less I can lose. But I have a relatively high level of performance now and in about 2 weeks I will have Herr Altmann's DAC here for comparison. Stay tuned.
As far as the spite in the air goes, I don't see why anybody should resent what this thread suggests. You can disagree in print or just shake your head and move on. I see lots of stuff on here that strikes me as insignificant or even stupid. So what. I received fairly strong rebuke recently for comments I made on another thread. That means that I didn't make my case too well, I had no case, or you're all a bunch of idiots and I couldn't be more right. Whichever, I know that nothing would be accomplished by throwing stones and making accusations. If you cannot become engaged in trivial controversy like this without becoming rude and insulting, then counseling would be in order. Or abstinence, if you have the self-control to enforce it.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #116 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 07:48 pm »

There's no reason to be disrespectful 99% of the time. Aren't we trying to argue points in an effort to make others understand our views? Calling names and other mean tricks generally has the opposite effect and also reflects badly on the author. If there is a strong point to be made, it will carry its own power without a bunch of exclamation points and fingers flying high. Further, being a jackass is the quickest way to kill an intelligent and vibrant thread like this one.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #117 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 07:57 pm »

What he said.

Cheers

GHM · « **Reply #118 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 08:05 pm »

I knew this thread was doomed the moment I read the first post.

I've never seen this topic end on a sweet note.

woodsyi · « **Reply #119 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 08:22 pm »

TCG,

I heard sweet digital sound last week -- 24/96 music decoded by an I2S 24/96 DAC. Check out EA's site for the free download. I like vinyl as well but I like digital too.