All CD Players sound the same. All CD Players sound the same?

michaelavorgna · « **Reply #60 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 04:49 pm »

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The lack of vinyl recordings cannot be debated. It's the old question of being on the deserted island and chosing between great equipment with one recording or lots of recordings with ordinary equipment. IMO only audiophiles would choose the former.

I'm waiting for the punch line...

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So when you add the surface noise (fingersnails on caulkboard), isolation issues, and lack of dynamics (don't vinyl guys ever listen to live music?) I have almost zero understanding or appreciation of vinyl-holics.

Subtle but that'll do

In terms of cost, the difference in price between new vinyl and redbook CD is typically a few dollars.

Eduardo AAVM · « **Reply #61 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 05:09 pm »

The most different sounding CD player I have ver heard is the Berendsen CDP-1, it has a very special sound, kind of analogue, very interesting and distinguishing

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #62 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 05:46 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 18 Feb 2007, 04:45 pm

John......Besides the CDP/Dac setup you owned, could you give us all an example of one you thought sounded better than the rest ? One you have heard. I do remember you saying you enjoyed the setup at Brian's (VMPS shootout). Thanks.....

WolfyChris,

Let's start this response by again stating the unequivocal advantages of CD over vinyl:

1. Convenience (disc handling, disc storage, remote control, etc)

2. Dynamics (16 bits = 96db. The best vinyl can muster is 40-50db I understand)

3. Noise (no explanation needed here I think)

4. User Features (ease of placement, remote volume, wider applicability with preamp sections...no RIAA equalization needed; only line inputs, etc)

There are of course some other issues like stereo separation, phase, bandwidth and the like....but they are most secondary to the above differences for most of us average/non-technical a'philes

#1 and #3 are essentially the same for all players; #2 and #4 differ somewhat based on players selected.

Of those, Big B's rig was the most dynamic I can remember hearing (played on awesome RM40's, this feature was easy to identify). It also had remote volume so you could remove the colorations of a preamp and go directly to your amp. That, for me, was less of a benefit as I've found adding tubes until you can bear CD sound is essential

Frankly, very few times in my life have I stopped dead in my tracks, listen for any length of time and admired sounds eminating from a CD player. There have been dynamics-a-plenty I've heard, but few if any that have conveyed musical subtleties as vinyl rather routinely does.

A CEC belt drive player in the Hyperion room at CES one year was nice; but, so too, were the very wonderful Hyperion speakers and Class A monoblocks they were using. So, I'm not sure what I was taken with there

One that impressed me enough to fork over $2K in mods was Steve Nugent's Empirical Audio room at CES 2004 and 2005. I think I was there for almost an hour each time and was able to stand listening (a BIG deal, for me). What part of that experience was born out of Steve's mastery and upgrades to his KEF speakers, his Mark Levinson pre-amp, Parasound JC-1 mono's or digital front end (in 2004 he had the Sony 7700 feeding a Perp Tech; in 2005 he had a dedicated laptop/server feeding the same Perp Tech)

Both years experience was a thrill ride....I found no difference between laptop server and Sony transport, personally.....but that type of equipment is very much wasted in the listening space we typically all have to work with.

Conveying music is the goal in real world spaces.....and vinyl does so far more convincingly than CD does - or, likely, ever will.

NOTE: I think DVD-A is a nice advance on digital sound; it improves on most of negative aspects of CD's, and encroaches a large part of the musicality that is the domain of vinyl nearly exclusively, right now

nathanm · « **Reply #63 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 05:52 pm »

As listeners we strive to control things which ultimately are out of our reach. When you're the last link in the recording chain it's extremely difficult to affect the hundreds of links preceding you. I personally find it difficult to pass judgement on a certain medium because for one you have to at least be talking about the same thing. You have to have the same album on vinyl and on CD and compare them. But this already introduces variables in the signal chain which are out of our control.

I've always felt that the sound I like to hear rests in the hands of the artists and recording engineers and not what medium their work is released on. But there are indeed medium-specific and not content-specific artifacts which most everyone agrees on: the surface noise of vinyl, and in a lesser sense, analog tape hiss. We are also influenced by the 2nd hand knowledge of bass content vs. track length, dynamic range limitations and the other playback technicalities, although all these things are not necessarily perceived as being problems by the vinyl fan.

We also agree that digital mediums do not have these same noise artifacts by design. Beyond the obvious noise all the other sonic traits fall into the realm of subjectivity in my view. I think I know what people mean by "digititus" but personally I only hear that with lower sampling rates which aren't used anyway. The noise issue seems to be weighted most strongly, and not just by audiophiles but by regular music fans. It seems to be the most obvious flaw of vinyl. If reel to reel 24 or 30ips tape was a consumer format I might take the analog vs. digital debate more seriously. Vinyl shows its flaws simply by playing what is supposed to be silence on the first needle drop. That isn't of course the only variable causing people to love it. There's also nostalgia, the ritual of the care and feeding of the turntable, and more importantly the time and circumstance in which the album was recorded. There's a whole slew of gear there way before it hits our slew of gear at home.

Ultimately we are simply spectators and can only pass judgement on what we've been given. We can control the manner in which we receive the content and control how it is presented, but I think our enjoyment of a certain musical work lives or dies in the hands of other people in time that has past.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #64 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 05:58 pm »

Thanks for your reply John....

Now let me ask you another question....do you have sensitive hearing ? I know some do....and that does effect what they like to listen too......

michaelavorgna · « **Reply #65 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 06:09 pm »

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"Last month, I listened to all the CDs submitted to NARAS for consideration in the 'Best Engineered Non-Classical' Grammy category. We listened to about 3 to 4 cuts from the 267 albums that were submitted. Every single CD was squashed to death with no dynamic range. The Finalizers and plug-ins were cranked to 'eleven' so that their CD would be the loudest. Not one attempted to take advantage of the dynamic range or cleanliness of digital recording." - Roger Nichols Grammy winning engineer for Steely Dan, Beach Boys and more. EQ Magazine January, 2002, issue.

Dynamic Range and Noise are obvious differences in theory. In practice, it depends. I was talking to a recording engineer this week and he was complaining about just this issue - Loudness is King, leaving dynamic range in the dust. Of course we're talking about "popular" music - radio music - but the measurable difference/superiority of digital over LP in terms of dynamic range is not as cut n dry as the basic numbers would leave you to believe.

WEEZ · « **Reply #66 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 06:13 pm »

ah, the good ol' cd compression...

rollo · « **Reply #67 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 06:26 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 18 Feb 2007, 05:58 pm

Thanks for your reply John....
Now let me ask you another question....do you have sensitive hearing ? I know some do....and that does effect what they like to listen too......

Chris great point.We have a couple of members in the Audiosyndrome that are so sensitive to high frequencies they cover their tweeters or add resisters to the tweeter to subdue the highs.Most of the club feels this is peculiar at best but understand their listening preferences.By the way their systems are CD based.
I myself am sensitive to bright or edgy high frequencies and cannot listen to some CD based systems.Could our ears or other sensitivities be the issue?
As an example I am very sensitive to phase and can tell you in an instant if the phase is correct.Others do not hear it but to me it is clear as day.So I guess it has a lot to do with our hearing capabilities,some are just more sensitive than others to certain characteristics of the sound.
Ok,how about this?Do you think digital music and digital in general is what is making us so irritable nowadays?[discussion phase 2]

rollo

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #68 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 06:29 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 18 Feb 2007, 05:58 pm

Thanks for your reply John....
Now let me ask you another question....do you have sensitive hearing ? I know some do....and that does effect what they like to listen too......

Chris,

Not particularly. Well, the day after a long plane flight perhaps more sensitive than other times...I've been wearing ear plugs for 5 years now on all flights and it has been quite beneficial to preserving hearing afterwards. Like most men married for 15 years, I can block out my wife pretty good, too

Interestingly you mention this as JLM/Jeff accused me earlier of taking a 'swipe' at single driver speakers. No swipe was intended; my opinion was my opinion only. However, in JLM's case, he suffers from tinnitus.....almost necessitating the need for single source speakers in conjunction with CD.

If you cut out what is most objectionable in CD's (high frequency content) and that portion of the audio spectrum that bothers tinnitus sufferers the most.....you would naturally choose single driver speakers and tubes (or possibly RWA low powered digital) for amplification. So, we can easily deduce why JLM prefers that course of components.

To each is own; but one needs to be aware of the reasons and why's for choosing what we do.

Switching to vinyl exclusively, with or without tubes and a 2/3 way system with active tweeter, would seem to be far less irritating to tinnitus sufferers. But, convenience of CD's is a tuff feature to avoid for most

Daygloworange · « **Reply #69 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 06:40 pm »

Quote from: WEEZ on 18 Feb 2007, 06:13 pm

ah, the good ol' cd compression...

CD's don't compress. Digital doesn't compress in coming audio signals. Analog tape does, as it's being saturated. Analog circuits do as they are beginning to clip.

The trend towards overcompression in the mastering phase of recordings, which certainly rose during the advent of digital, did not begin because of digital audio. It's a misconception.

Cheers

Audiovista · « **Reply #70 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 06:42 pm »

I know a guy who can hear 22-25kHz (I tested him with a signal generator)...he is not an audiophile and certainly not proud of it as it is mostly a problem - apparently there is a lot of noise pollution in that range.

Rollo, combinations with SE amplifiers are more sensitive to phase than other systems. Depending on how you connect speakers ("plus-to-plus" or inverted) you get the reduction/cancellation of second harmonic distortion (which is predominant in a well designed SE amp, and is also inherent to the sound propagation through the air). This can be picked, relatively easy, by ear. What is your experience?

Boris

Daygloworange · « **Reply #71 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 06:59 pm »

On the topic of hearing. I know as I'm getting older, I can cetainly get more easily annoyed by sonics. I don't temper things as well as when I was younger, even though as you age, your ability to hear high frequencies diminishes.

I find that interesting. There is a also the well known phenomenon of people becoming unsettled with the absence of residual sound floor. Families that move from large cities to quiet suburbs find that their children can't sleep at night because the noise floor of the city is absent. Kind of like the soothing sound of waves crashing on a beach, or a babbling brook. There is comfort to be found there for some people.

If you've ever been away in the boonies, on a quiet lake far from inhabitants on a fishing trip, the quiet is a very apparent thing. Time seems to go much slower.

If you've ever been in an sound isolation chamber, it's unerving. I've been in some heavy duty double walled (sound chamber isolated in another sound chamber) on a floating floor, in a dead quiet industrial building during off hours, and the silence is freaky. You can hear your ears ringing, you can hear your blood rushing through your body and ears, you're heartbeat is apparent. There might be people just outside the booth, but you feel very disconnected with them. Like you been transported light years away with the closing of the door.

It's kind of hard to describe, actually.

Cheers

rollo · « **Reply #72 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 07:36 pm »

Quote from: Audiovista on 18 Feb 2007, 06:42 pm

I know a guy who can hear 22-25kHz (I tested him with a signal generator)...he is not an audiophile and certainly not proud of it as it is mostly a problem - apparently there is a lot of noise pollution in that range.

Rollo, combinations with SE amplifiers are more sensitive to phase than other systems. Depending on how you connect speakers ("plus-to-plus" or inverted) you get the reduction/cancellation of second harmonic distortion (which is predominant in a well designed SE amp, and is also inherent to the sound propagation through the air). This can be picked, relatively easy, by ear. What is your experience?

Boris

Boris,
I use SETs.My system is in phase.There are no inverting components in the chain.I have tried running the speakers out of phase and found it was well out of phase.Sounded bloated with excess air and not tightly in focus.I use the Sheffield test and burn in Cd for this purpose with excellent results.
As far as the technical end is concerned your losing me man.All I know that the phase inversion switch is a wonderfull feature and EVERY MANF. should include one.
We missed you at the Rave Meeting yesterday.
rollo

Audiovista · « **Reply #73 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 07:45 pm »

Dayglowrange, I know what you talking about...weird feeling in those chambers...unsettling. It becomes obvious that we use our ears/brain combo for much more than just hearing....

Rollo, I'm sorry too to have missed the rave yesterday. Woke up with migraine and spent a better part of the morning in bed with blanket over my head.

Boris

JLM · « **Reply #74 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 07:50 pm »

TCG,

I do not have tinnitus. I'm 50 and can hear to at least 16,000 Hz. You must be thinking of someone else.

Decades ago (before solid state, CD, and other "evil" audio things) audiophiles concentrated on 80 - 8,000 Hz. Small amps necessitated high efficiency speakers that couldn't do deep bass. But since then marketing hype has convinced most that we need 20 - 20,000 Hz at 110 dB. That hype has sold lots of big, complicated, and expensive audio systems and caused many to lose perspective of the heart of the music.

I'll agree that the vast majority of single driver designs are not close to being "full range" and that most owners of single driver speakers have deluded themselves into believing that deep bass doesn't exist and/or they don't like it. Several of those types were dumbstruck when they heard my single driver speakers: http://geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/FTA-2000/Main.html and http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/f200a.pdf

I could live without the dynamic range that digital playback provides, but I'd give up audio if I was limited to what's available on vinyl or had to live with surface noise. And I can't fathom how self professed audiophiles put up with all that.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #75 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 08:04 pm »

John.....Seminarian has posted that he has tinnitus.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #76 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 08:21 pm »

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Dayglowrange, I know what you talking about...weird feeling in those chambers...unsettling. It becomes obvious that we use our ears/brain combo for much more than just hearing....

Yeah, it's very surreal. Kind of like suspended animation or something.

Cheers

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #77 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 12:11 am »

Quote from: JLM on 18 Feb 2007, 07:50 pm

TCG,

I do not have tinnitus. I'm 50 and can hear to at least 16,000 Hz. You must be thinking of someone else.

Ahhhh, my apologies - I thought it was you. Maybe it was Seminarian...I know it was someone, fairly active for years at AC, stated that a while back.

I don't actually know what I can hear up to....I know I hear, loud and clear, the 10khz test tone on the Cardas Frequency Sweep record, tho.

John/TCG

RoadTripper · « **Reply #78 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 01:01 am »

I have it [tinnitus] . But I can't imagine I'm the only one around here who does. I got it from 4 hours per night of being in a bar band, 20 years of piano tuning and genetics.

I got the CD thing going back when they first came out due to the raves from a recording engineer at a studio whose piano I tuned. He spoke of the S/N ratio and the dynamic range. My vinyl system at the time was basically junk and I saw CDs as a way to get a quantum leap going without the hassle or the big cash outlay.

Ever since, - and to be sure, it has been getting a lot better of late - I have been cringing at the sound, marvelling at how at times my "great stereo" can still sound like a victrola. [The victrolas were analogue, don't forget. And my vinyl rigs sounded like crap most of the time, even though they were "making music". I have no doubt the cringe factor was greater with vinyl than with CD. But that may be due to low budget equipment at the front end. My last turntable was a Linco.]

My background as a musician in numerous formats is what drives me to listen to music today. And for the most part, the CD (now hard-drive, and all battery Squeezebox, DAC and amp) solution is plenty good. I find massed strings and massed chorus to be a problem in a CD solution. But I think that is due to the fact that they don't sound all that great live either. Vocalists don't exactly sync up their vibrato when singing in a choir. And their intonation is nowhere near as good as even a violin section's is, which itself is definitely not perfect.

From here on out, I am going to be climbing the digital mountain, not because I don't think that some flavor of musical nirvana can be obtained with vinyl, but because I do find CD musical and have this crazy idea that I may be nearing the end of the chase and might be able to quit obsessing over equipment.

alotaklipsch · « **Reply #79 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 01:26 am »

MY BAD