All CD Players sound the same. All CD Players sound the same?

Daygloworange · « **Reply #80 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 01:39 am »

Quote

I have it [tinnitus] . But I can't imagine I'm the only one around here who does. I got it from 4 hours per night of being in a bar band, 20 years of piano tuning and genetics.

Same here. My brother is a drummer, and I'm a guitar player with 100 watt Marshall's. We've been playing together for over 20 years. My practice amp in my room as a teenager was a 100 watt Marshall as well.

I had to have my hearing checked as part of a comprehensive physical prior to employment with a large company while I was in my early 20's, and it was all good. After that I did get obsessed with earplugs and hearing protection while doing noisy activities. But yeah, my ears do ring a bit.

I can still hear things that some people can't though. I freak people out all the time with "did you hear that", and it always turns out to be true. Both very low, and very high frequencies. So I'm not panicked about it. However, I would not ever claim to have Golden Ears or anything of the sort.

A hole in frequency response of my hearing would panic me much more.

Cheers

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #81 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:16 am »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 17 Feb 2007, 05:48 pm

I have never heard more than a twit of difference between most CD players.

alotaklipsch

What TCG means is the above half-ass succinct statement from his first post requires 8 pages of elaborate explanation.

WEEZ · « **Reply #82 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:25 am »

Dayglow,

Your point re: compression is correct, of course. It's simply not the case, however, (like some have hinted at here) that analog is not capable of dynamic playback. I own recordings from the early days of stereo that are more dynamic than most of my cd's.

JLM,

It's really unfortunate that you never bothered to set up your Thorens properly years ago. Isolation is no big deal..really it's not. And I question your comments regarding frequency response. Any modern phono cartridge/RIAA phono-amp will equal the bandwidth capability of redbook digital...both of which will exceed the capability of a single driver speaker. There is audible benefit to wide bandwidth..it has to do with harmonics...surely you know that..

alotaklipsch,

You seem to have an attitude. Disagreements are one thing; 'attitude' is another...

respectfully,

WEEZ

pacifico · « **Reply #83 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:39 am »

personally, this thread answeres alot of questions for me. what was said by alotaklipsch was uncalled for.

alotaklipsch · « **Reply #84 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:43 am »

HAD A BAD DAY? ME TOO, IGNORE PREVIOUS POST :duh:HEY, WHERE DID YA GET THAT SMILEY WITH FINGER?

Daygloworange · « **Reply #85 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:52 am »

Yeah, that makes it all better...

Cheers

alotaklipsch · « **Reply #86 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:57 am »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 19 Feb 2007, 02:52 am

Yeah, that makes it all better...

Cheers

AAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW TANKS

Daygloworange · « **Reply #87 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 03:00 am »

Hey, I found that smiley you like so much!

Cheers

Daygloworange · « **Reply #88 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 03:01 am »

Man, I crack me up sometimes....

Cheers

Jim N. · « **Reply #89 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 03:01 am »

I'm over 50 and have mild occasional tinnitus. I suppose I could blame vinyl

as I used to crank up the headsets many moons ago

along with attending hundreds of concerts in the 70's. I guess my ears got too Zepped/Sabbed/Purpled/et all. Hell, I'm old enough to have seen Hendrix twice in this world (see you in the next one, don't be late).

Anyway, for me vinyl is as dead as William Tecumseh Sherman. I can honestly say that I heard no compelling reason to seek out vinyl again while attending HE2006 and RMAF 2006. CD's were a positive change for me in 1986 as I was sick of all the crappy, warped, paper thin vinyl pressings I was getting. I got tired of seeking out Japanese LP's which were more expensive than CD's. Plus, a lot of back catalog was released on CD that was hard to find on LP. I can still remember finding a copy of Love's "Da Capo" on German vinyl in 1984. It was like finding water in the Sahara or good beer at a restaurant. Many of the early CD's were brutal though, old LP masters transferred to digital. The early Atlantic catalog releases (Zep, Yes) were notorious. The damn RIAA curve wasn't needed for CD's.

I can also say that now that CD's are essentially on life support for me as I rip them to disk using EAC and burn them to DVD using Circlinca. CD's are just for the car. My sources are a Pioneer 59 (picked up used and did additional chassis damping and added Stillpoints ERS cloth and spikes) > Monarchy 24/96 > Paradisea DAC and a Denon 2910> RAM modded Bel Canto DAC2. No fancy IC's, just some Blue Jeans and DH Labs. I have no problem listening to all of the 2 hour capacity of a DVD at 24/96 in fact I wish it was longer (PC audio someday!). After midnight, minimal light, feet up in the recliner and it's bliss.

My take on this is that all audio formats are flawed and it comes down to which one offends us the least. We seek out that which fits best with our personal bias. What is amazing is the incredible array of audio delivery systems (for wont of a better term) that we can tailor to suit our personal tastes. Tubes, solid state, digital, PC, vinyl, processors, speaker designs, et all. If one was so compellingly great would there be so many options? Good thing we of the highly limited budget can interchange components enough to be able to find something that works for us as individuals. Back in the day it was Receiver, turntable, 2 or 3 way ported speakers, headset and MAYBE tape. Now the combinations boggle the mind.

I believe that so many gushing user reviews of just bought gear are due to their new purchase not doing "wrong" what their prior gear did. We listen, analyze and over time accept the good as a given and focus on the flaw(s) to the point that is all that we hear anymore, what the gear does wrong. Then we hear a new piece of gear and it has a different flaw (as all gear essentially must) but not the one that has driven us to distraction with our current set up. PROBLEM SOLVED! IT SOUNDS SO GOOD! GOTTA POST ON AC OR AA! Then we listen, we analyze and over time.....

TCG- I'm wondering if whatever you dislike about digital audio makes it difficult to assess each player's strengths / weaknesses. You hear that "digital flaw" and you can no longer get past that. Kind of like some people not being able to get past surface noise and rumble. This is not meant to be a flame or an insult. You sure don't want me determining which turntable / cartridge is best. I have heard differences between players and DAC, CD's and home brewed DVD disks. I really wish that my ears agreed with yours as it would have saved me some serious money. I am sure that the ghost of Julian Hirsch is smiling on you now!

Does vinyl or CD sound better? I suppose it all depends upon your personal taste. Whatever works for you is all that really matters. Do all CD players sound the same? Apparently some think they do. Who am I to doubt what they hear (or do not?). To me there are differences.

PS- How can one get listening fatigue from a medium that requires you to 1) Get off you butt every 20 minutes, 2) Perform a convoluted PVPR (Personal Vinyl Preparation Ritual), 3) Softly tread as quickly as possible back to your seat before the track begins. And heaven forbid if you want to listen to the same song five or six times in a row. Convenience IS part of the "listening experience".

Needledrop! Man, all turntables / cartridges sound the same

. It's nice to be able to discuss these things without an AA-style pissing contest breaking out.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #90 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 05:08 am »

No insult taken, Jim - nicely written synopsis, too

I actually take into account all of the many conveniences and betterments that CD brings to the table.....but, in this case (for me), the sum of the parts does not equal the whole.

Vinyl playback is whole to me; playback via CD is just bits and parts & fits and starts

Jim N. · « **Reply #91 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 05:54 am »

TCG- Enjoy your vinyl in good health. That is what it all boils down to, the enjoyment of music. Why shouldn't music delivery systems be as diverse as music itself? It's not like we all listen to the same type of music. Whatever makes you happy, whatever communicates with you.

It is nice to not have to deal with the Audio Jihadists that infest so many forums! AC is a great place.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #92 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 06:56 am »

You know the thing about vinyl…is there just isn't much being released anymore. Come to think of it, it’s been a long time since that format heralded the latest recording of well…anyone? Also, if I recall correctly…waaaaaaaaaay back in the 1980’s…a lot of vinyl was nothing more than digital wannabe. Fact is towards the end of the LP era; much of that antiquated format was digitally recorded and or digitally mastered.

There was good vinyl, but there was also a lot of crap vinyl too. Crap vinyl like crap digital sounds like…well…crap. Then it should also be noted that all vinyl playback systems are not equal. My phono cartridge alone was worth more than what many people’s entire system costs today. Those sleek Rega turntables were popular but hardly high end. I know, I owned one. Then there’s the matter of a decent tone arm; anything under a thousand dollars isn’t what I’d call high end. And it all has to be set up properly or the end result will be sheer mediocrity.

Like what you like, but don’t preach it to the rest of us because vinyl is DEAD, and there won’t be any resurrection either. The music loving community has moved on. There’s nothing wrong with hanging onto your horse and buggy, but now the streets are filled with fast moving steel and glass. That’s just the way it is. Survival of the fittest.

Zero · « **Reply #93 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 01:57 pm »

The_KiD · « **Reply #94 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:05 pm »

Man, this thread is a pretty good read. All 10 pages worth. I think this debate will never be resolved. Anyway, what a great read with my morning coffee..

KiD

macrojack · « **Reply #95 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:48 pm »

Maybe we do ourselves a disservice by scrutinizing our playback quality so intently. After all it seems that the higher you raise your standards in audio, the more money it will cost you and the more alienated you will feel relative to your family and friends who are not similarly obsessed. When is good enough good enough?
I have a relatively sophisticated analog inventory and I play records pretty often but I read about music servers and I'm tempted to invest in a taste of the future. But there is nostalgia and 4000 LPs telling me, "not so fast". So I guess I will continue to cling to my youth and continue to spin some vinyl till my own motor stops. Both analog and digital have their place in my lifestyle but the compactness and convenience of digital hearken evermore to supercede analog. I guess the main reason I have never impulsively dumped my whole analog investment is fear of regret. I just might be really sorry one day that I don't have that option any longer. I'll be 60 this year. Why change now?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #96 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 04:06 pm »

Wind Chaser,

I find your 'tough love' style quite amusing

However, it's largely wasted on me because I am not advocating a large-scale comeback for vinyl, merely stating that spending less on a CD player will save money and frustration....as it a largely a more flawed playback medium than vinyl.

They are both flawed, for reasons pointed out throughout the proceeding 10 pages.....but, utimately, vinyl allows you to connect with the music's wholeness, while CD keeps you wondering what is missing

For a meager investment of perhaps $750.00 with turntable, integrated arm, cartridge and cleaning machine, you can best any CD player in several regards as to musicality. I'm not thinking that vinyl is making a large-scale comback at any time...it is waaay too tweeky for most.

When I do laundry; I fold, hang or place my clothes in their proper spots afterwards. I clean the dishes each night so I don't have to do so in the morning. My taxes are done in advance and orderly so they are pretty much handed in to my accountant each year for tabulation. So, for me, the tweekiness the is oftentimes vinyl is handled aplomb - it's no big deal. For most, however, convenience will win out. For me (and, fortunately, for others) the twiddlyness of vinyl is worthwhile as the quality of the music is far more enjoyable.

So, again, I'm not saying run out and buy a vinyl set-up...it's not FOR everybody. But, do spend less (as little as possible) than astronomical amounts for CD...as more dollars will never bring you the happiness that vinyl can, will and does

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 19 Feb 2007, 06:56 am

You know the thing about vinyl…is there just isn't much being released anymore. Come to think of it, it’s been a long time since that format heralded the latest recording of well…anyone? Also, if I recall correctly…waaaaaaaaaay back in the 1980’s…a lot of vinyl was nothing more than digital wannabe. Fact is towards the end of the LP era; much of that antiquated format was digitally recorded and or digitally mastered.

There was good vinyl, but there was also a lot of crap vinyl too. Crap vinyl like crap digital sounds like…well…crap. Then it should also be noted that all vinyl playback systems are not equal. My phono cartridge alone was worth more than what many people’s entire system costs today. Those sleek Rega turntables were popular but hardly high end. I know, I owned one. Then there’s the matter of a decent tone arm; anything under a thousand dollars isn’t what I’d call high end. And it all has to be set up properly or the end result will be sheer mediocrity.

Like what you like, but don’t preach it to the rest of us because vinyl is DEAD, and there won’t be any resurrection either. The music loving community has moved on. There’s nothing wrong with hanging onto your horse and buggy, but now the streets are filled with fast moving steel and glass. That’s just the way it is. Survival of the fittest.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #97 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 04:09 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 19 Feb 2007, 05:08 am

Vinyl playback is whole to me; playback via CD is just bits and parts & fits and starts

I agree, to a point. Until recently, pursuit of the digital sound has been about statistics - increasing bitrates, upsampling, oversampling, bigger s/n ratios. The majority of the digital scene is still pursuing the "ultimate" ideal and I'm sure they can quote big time superiority of their numbers.

On the other hand, there's a quieter group that are trying very hard to get to the soul of the bits. That might seem oxymoronic but in a number of cases and with different technologies this bugger of a riddle is unraveling. Is it there yet? I don't know, I haven't heard anything yet that sounds the same but I've heard enough to believe that wholeness is possible with 16/44.1.

Quote from: The_KiD on 19 Feb 2007, 02:05 pm

Man, this thread is a pretty good read. All 10 pages worth. I think this debate will never be resolved. KiD

Find me one that we can resolve and we'll have to invent some kind of lifetime achievement award for you. This is good, it keeps us all coming back. Solve the problems and we'd be pretty bored.

Jon L · « **Reply #98 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 04:40 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 19 Feb 2007, 04:09 pm

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 19 Feb 2007, 05:08 am
Vinyl playback is whole to me; playback via CD is just bits and parts & fits and starts

I agree, to a point. Until recently, pursuit of the digital sound has been about statistics - increasing bitrates, upsampling, oversampling, bigger s/n ratios. The majority of the digital scene is still pursuing the "ultimate" ideal and I'm sure they can quote big time superiority of their numbers.

On the other hand, there's a quieter group that are trying very hard to get to the soul of the bits.

The real digital revolution IMO is happening quietly through solid fundamentals, through years of steady improvements in basic circuits, digital know-how, and development of fundamental good building blocks (i.e. AD1852/5 chip, CS8416, etc).

I think many of us have caught on to the fact bigger numbers aren't necessarily better. These days not many of us are impressed by the "64 bit 669TeraKHz up and oversampled" game. I know some of us have gone down the TDA154x NOS route, but I myself love what I'm hearing from the cheap CS8416/AD1852 combo combined with simple oversampling and (modded) discrete output stage. Simple, yet effective, and incredibly musical (see the Oritek modded Zhaolu below).

But it still takes work to synergize and optimize your overall system to make music, but if you do the fundamentals correctly, you CAN reach a point where most of your digital music files (yes, I am 100% hard drive audiophile) will sound satisfying and musical.

rollo · « **Reply #99 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 04:56 pm »

Chairguy,
I believe you are correct in saying today a less expensive player can provide quality sound.I own a Lector which retails for $4500.Recently I have been fortunate to hear several players costing $500 to $1500 lately as well as two PC based, USB D/A converters.
The USB DACs were under $400 and the least expensive $199.I was TAKEN BACK with the sound quality of these units.Actually quite surprised.Were they better than the $4500 player? No. however close enough to make me rethink my CD front end.Should I sell the Lector and buy the Olive[modified by Redwine] or the E-Mu 4014 D/A with USB?
Gee I can upgrade my Linn to a Lingo or buy anew cart.or something like that.After some thought,I decided to keep the player.Why? well because it gave me that little extra I crave.Believe me the Olive was so close at $1400,I probably could live with it but in the end the Lector gives me all I want
For me it is not the money[to a point] it is the performance level.So at this time I am staying put.That decision may not be prudent but it works for me.
Digital has come a long way to date but is still young compared to vinyl playback.They are getting closer and closer to the real deal and I believe soon It will be the real deal.
I will NEVER SELL MY VINYL. Why? Just have too much great music to let it go The one thing I Will not do in the future is buy a megs buck CDP.When the technology surpasses what I own PC based here I come..
So as of right now Vinyl still rules in my book,for how long? Don't know as the gap IS narrowing.
rollo